Descent BB

 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

   Descent BB Forum Index > Tech Forum > Looking to upgrade my 2009 system build Post new topic   Reply to topic
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Pun
DBB Admin




PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 3:05 pm View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

This is what I'm running now, although there's a 1TB storage drive in there as well, and I'm running dual 23 Acer LED backlit LCD's.



The goal is to upgrade this system for better gaming performance. (right now I'm playing an MMO that's a total resource hog (The Secret World), and also have been dabbling a bit with Planetside 2 and the new Counterstrike)

I'm not looking for total state-of-the-art, but would like something current without breaking the bank. I'd like to incorporate an SSD into the mix. Would you guys recommend replacing the MB and memory or just popping in a new graphics card and processor. I've been totally out of the loop on gaming systems for a few years now and have no idea. I do know my current system is much too slow, just not sure where the main weaknesses are.
Krom
DBB Admin




PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 4:27 pm View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

First you want to determine what is actually the bottleneck in the system, a good way to do that is to benchmark the games that are slow at different resolutions. Try going in steps all the way down to 640x480 (might have to run it windowed) and see if and how much the performance goes up at every step. If the performance remains the same even at lower resolutions, then it is a CPU limit, otherwise if it gets progressively faster all the way down to 640x480 then it is GPU limited.

One other area to check is the texture detail levels in the game and monitoring how much video memory the game uses. Newer games are starting to use over 1 GB of texture memory, so that could also cause significant performance drops on video cards with 1 GB or less.

If it is the CPU, try overclocking it first. If you can talk it up to ~3.5 GHz it should make enough difference to hold off an upgrade for another couple years.

If it is the GPU, an upgrade is pretty straight forward. Just keep in mind a fast enough video card is much more likely to bring out your CPU limits, so you might still need that overclock to balance the system out.

_________________
(19:11) [D3k]Gooberman: pffft, I didnt get owned baal, you just got 60 lucky fusion shots
Grendel
Ninja Admin




PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 7:07 pm View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

$220 for a GPU, $110 for an SSD. As for the CPU -- if you can find a better LGA 1156 CPU, BUY IT ! Else your only option to update the CPU is a new motherboard...

_________________
Borders? I have never seen one. But I have heard they exist in the minds of some people. -- Thor Heyerdahl
Durch einen Stich bereits geschafft, erschlafft und ohne Saft und Kraft! -- Donald, examining a Deflator Dextrospirillus
Pun
DBB Admin




PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 7:18 pm View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

Thanks, guys.
Bunyip
DBB Staff




PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 6:48 am View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

Vinnie - For work, I bought a refurbed HP w/ 8 core AMD processor, 16 GB RAM and a lower-end Radeon card for $450 shipped from Newegg - and surprisingly it absolutely crushes my 2008 quad-core system despite the lousy video card (the 2008 system has a GTX 560 Ti). I'm thinking about dropping the Nvidia in the work system (well that and new PSU) and swapping 'em.

Something to think about.

_________________
BELIEVE NOTHING, no matter where you read it, or who has said it,
not even if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason
and your own common sense. - GAUTAMA BUDDHA
Pun
DBB Admin




PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 10:59 am View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

Interesting, Chris. Which chip and mobo are in there?

I read that Intel is about to come out with new chips. I might just do what Detlef recommended and wait to see what the deal is with these new Intel chips.
Pun
DBB Admin




PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 11:21 am View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

Also, for now, I might try a mild overclock on the current system. Can anyone point me to a resource for overclocking my particular chip, or give me an idea of how to best do it? I haven't touched a BIOS in over 5 years.
Pun
DBB Admin




PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 11:27 am View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

Blah...another question... What are people using these days for benchmarking?
Krom
DBB Admin




PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 2:00 pm View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

Most relevant are usually game benchmarks and any type of compression from straight file compression (when it isn't I/O bound) with 7-zip to audio/video encoding (think converting DVDs/Bluray movies to x264 video and AAC audio in a matroska file on your hard drive). Games give you a easily understandable frames per second variable but mostly focus on the GPU (although they often strike a good balance between CPU and GPU if you tweak them). Compression or encoding gives a easily understandable time it took to complete variable but usually focuses almost entirely on the CPU.

General office/web/productivity benchmarks aren't as relevant on modern CPUs because almost everything is fast enough that hardly anyone is going to notice or care. Synthetic benchmarks (like 3dmark) are... well, synthetic and pretty much everyone has given up on them.

_________________
(19:11) [D3k]Gooberman: pffft, I didnt get owned baal, you just got 60 lucky fusion shots
Pun
DBB Admin




PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 5:19 pm View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

So, with that being said, what would be the proper way to benchmark an MMO? Framerates vary so widely based upon the activity in your field of view. I'm not quite sure how you'd get an accurate comparison when changing settings.
Grendel
Ninja Admin




PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 6:59 pm View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

I did some skimming -- that game seems to be a memory hog. Try doubling you RAM 1st (sets you back only about $50.)

_________________
Borders? I have never seen one. But I have heard they exist in the minds of some people. -- Thor Heyerdahl
Durch einen Stich bereits geschafft, erschlafft und ohne Saft und Kraft! -- Donald, examining a Deflator Dextrospirillus
Krom
DBB Admin




PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 8:42 pm View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

All you really need to do is find some spot where the game is repeatable and you can change settings then redo it, it doesn't have to be a particularly active location. Sometimes just loading up FRAPS and having its framerate overlay displaying while changing the game resolution in an empty scene is enough to tell you how much faster/slower it is.

_________________
(19:11) [D3k]Gooberman: pffft, I didnt get owned baal, you just got 60 lucky fusion shots
Bunyip
DBB Staff




PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 6:58 am View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

Pun wrote:
Interesting, Chris. Which chip and mobo are in there?


Here's the Spec.

Mobo looks proprietary/private label by gigabyte. Processor is AMD FX-8150 (8 Core) and it looks like I was mistaken about the RAM - only 10 GB, and the card is a crappy radeon 7570 HD.. But it's gonna run Excel niiiice.

_________________
BELIEVE NOTHING, no matter where you read it, or who has said it,
not even if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason
and your own common sense. - GAUTAMA BUDDHA
Krom
DBB Admin




PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 8:37 am View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

http://www.anandtech.com/show/4955/the-bulldozer-review-amd-fx8150-tested/8

_________________
(19:11) [D3k]Gooberman: pffft, I didnt get owned baal, you just got 60 lucky fusion shots
Pun
DBB Admin




PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 9:43 pm View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

Thanks, guys. I'm going to try a new graphics card, SSD and doubling my ram for now, and see where I end up. From there, I might try a mild overclock on my CPU. Hopefully, this'll tide me over until the new Intel chips hit market.

So, with the SSD, what's the strategy? OS only on the SSD and apps on your DConfused Or, do I try to get my games on the SSD as well, in which case I'd need more than 120GB, no? How do I configure this thing?
Grendel
Ninja Admin




PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 11:17 pm View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

The 840s come with a migration tool (also available for d/l here.) Your OS and applications should be on the SSD, your data elsewhere. My installation is less than 40G (but then I have very few games installed... Wink Got 250G of pictures on a RAID tho.) Move all your data off the current system disk and uninstall whatever uses up space until it fits onto the new disk w/ ~20-30G to spare (or get a bigger disk -- expensive tho.) Add the SSD to your system, install the migration tool and let it do its job. Then set the SSD as the active boot disk in the BIOS. You can leave the old disk in the system as backup and emergency boot Smile Oh, and install the Magician Software (for tuning and periodic maintenance) and re-run the windows experience index assessment (will let windows know that there's an SSD attached.)

BTW, this is the same 840 but w/ more stuff (USB adapter, bracket, cable) -- currently for the same price as the one above.

_________________
Borders? I have never seen one. But I have heard they exist in the minds of some people. -- Thor Heyerdahl
Durch einen Stich bereits geschafft, erschlafft und ohne Saft und Kraft! -- Donald, examining a Deflator Dextrospirillus
Pun
DBB Admin




PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 11:54 am View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

Thanks man. Saved me 5 bucks!

I'm wondering if perhaps I should only install Win 7 and games onto the SSD and dump Office, Adobe Creative Suite, and other programs onto D:/Program Files. I just looked at my current drive and my C is 119GB. And that's with almost every program installed to D.
Krom
DBB Admin




PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 12:25 pm View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

Most games don't really benefit from loading off a SSD much (they are mostly sequential accesses), better to keep all your office and general applications on the SSD because they are more likely to actually benefit from it and they generally aren't that big. I have everything except games installed on my SSD, system restore is still turned on, hibernation is still turned on, pagefile is on the SSD (although very lightly used because I have enough RAM) and I'm holding pretty steady at about 60 GB used / 88 GB free on my 160 (148 GB) SSD, install is a bit older than 1 year. And I haven't even used 1% of the drives rated program/erase cycle endurance yet (currently at about 1.4 TB host writes).

My 250 GB worth of games, and the couple TB worth of media files are all stored on hard drives. I checked out most of the slowest loading games I have using steam mover to see if they loaded any quicker off the SSD but I couldn't tell the difference. There are some games that benefit from loading off a SSD, but none of the ones I play do.

Edit: The other thing to keep in mind with a windows 7 pro install is a significant portion of your disk space might be shadow copy/system restore shenanigans if you keep documents and data files and the like in the "library" folders windows organizes. You can try going in to system restore and deleting all but the most recent restore point and backups, which can save a significant amount of space depending on the size of the drive windows is installed on (the amount allocated is based on a percentage of the drive size, so the bigger the drive, the bigger system restore / shadow copy can be).

_________________
(19:11) [D3k]Gooberman: pffft, I didnt get owned baal, you just got 60 lucky fusion shots
Pun
DBB Admin




PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 3:02 pm View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

What about MMO's? When I'm loading into a new zone, it seems like it takes longer than most of the others in the group. Wouldn't having the content on the SSD help with that?
Krom
DBB Admin




PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 3:32 pm View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

You would have to check the game to see if it improves any. If I watch a CPU/disk monitor on my secondary screen, most games I have peg a single CPU core near 100% while loading maps but otherwise generate fairly light disk activity (even newer games that are well threaded while playing still load maps with only a single thread). If you have a multi-monitor setup, I'd recommend trying that out yourself. Just having resource monitor open on the second monitor and watching the disk latency / CPU time while loading levels can give you a lot of information about which one is causing the biggest delays. One other thing to keep an eye on is the amount of physical memory usage on the system, because if you don't have enough then it is going to hit the page file and that will definitely be toxic to load times (it'd be better on a SSD, but still something you would want to avoid).

_________________
(19:11) [D3k]Gooberman: pffft, I didnt get owned baal, you just got 60 lucky fusion shots
Pun
DBB Admin




PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 3:49 pm View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

Gotcha. I'll have to take a look, but I suspect you're right about memory being one of the issues. Hopefully bumping up to 8GB will help with that.
Krom
DBB Admin




PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 11:54 pm View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

Aye, I noticed a nice kick out of Just Cause 2 jumping from 4 to 8 GB of RAM. Went from loading/checkpoints/quick traveling its gigantic world map in 5-10 ish seconds, to something more like 1-2 seconds at most. So fast that the hints that show during the loading screens look kind of stupid. But definitely revealing the advantage of letting windows run with 5-6 GB of memory "free" to cache stuff with. I may even upgrade to 16 GB in a while because good DDR3 is getting to be so cheap.

Although Just Cause 2 didn't start behaving that way till I disabled desktop composition in the windows compatibility settings for it (which I disabled because otherwise the game kept blanking the secondary monitor whenever the it was running). Unfortunately trying the same trick with other games didn't speed up the load times any (and they didn't blank the secondary monitor anyway).

_________________
(19:11) [D3k]Gooberman: pffft, I didnt get owned baal, you just got 60 lucky fusion shots
Krom
DBB Admin




PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 10:47 am View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

Here is a Samsung 840 Pro/128 GB for $119 if you use the promo code: EMCXWVR22 (expires 1/31)...
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820147192

The speed advantage of the pro version is worth $10 extra (probably even worth the standard $30 premium in most cases).

_________________
(19:11) [D3k]Gooberman: pffft, I didnt get owned baal, you just got 60 lucky fusion shots
Pun
DBB Admin




PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 2:42 pm View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

Too late, but what's the difference?
Krom
DBB Admin




PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 8:22 pm View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

The pro uses superior flash memory. The non-pro uses 3 bits per cell flash memory and is one of the first SSDs to use that type. The pro uses the more common 2 bits per cell flash memory. The more bits per cell, the cheaper the memory is, but it is also slower and less durable it is.

Right now the 256/512 GB pro models are the fastest SSDs on the market with the 128 GB model nipping at their heels, the non-pro is more middle of the pack. Don't worry about the durability of the flash memory, unless you set out to wear it out on purpose it should outlive the computer and probably you too, unless you live to be 150 years old.

_________________
(19:11) [D3k]Gooberman: pffft, I didnt get owned baal, you just got 60 lucky fusion shots
Grendel
Ninja Admin




PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 9:31 pm View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

I think his mainboard has SATA II... Wink

_________________
Borders? I have never seen one. But I have heard they exist in the minds of some people. -- Thor Heyerdahl
Durch einen Stich bereits geschafft, erschlafft und ohne Saft und Kraft! -- Donald, examining a Deflator Dextrospirillus
Pun
DBB Admin




PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 3:59 pm View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

Got everything in. Huge difference, but... WTF? Went from chugging around at 30FPS on medium quality with no fluff, dipping into the teens and 20's in fights to rock solid 50-70FPS on ultra image quality with all the shit turned on.

Grendel
Ninja Admin




PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 6:24 pm View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

5.9 seems too low for an SSD ? (Have to check what my score is later @ home.) Could be lack of AHCI mode, did you install W7 w/ legacy IDE mode turned on in the BIOS ? (Do *NOT* change that setting w/o further research if it is !!!)

Interesting 7.3 CPU -- same as my trusty Q9850 Smile I got 7.3 on the memory score tho, guess after all it's DDR2 and socket 775 :/

_________________
Borders? I have never seen one. But I have heard they exist in the minds of some people. -- Thor Heyerdahl
Durch einen Stich bereits geschafft, erschlafft und ohne Saft und Kraft! -- Donald, examining a Deflator Dextrospirillus
STRESSTEST
DBB Admin




PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 6:31 pm View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

way to low




_________________
BFDiddy - "You play with your friends wii? Does that make you gay?"

JBOMB - "kinda...cause after you smoke enough bowls you end up realizing you are both 2 idiots jumping around in front of a tv.."
Pun
DBB Admin




PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 8:50 pm View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

I'm referring to the low hard disk score, in case you didn't notice.
Grendel
Ninja Admin




PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 9:36 pm View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

Oh, you ment the DDTR ? ;P With that disk on SATA II it should be at least >= 7.2 (that's the score on my 775 based Shuttle comp w/ a Samsung 840 in IDE mode.) Looks like your SATA port is running in SATA I mode for some reason.

A few questions:

- in your BIOS, under Integrated Peripherals --> On-Chip ATA Devices, what is RAID Mode set to ?
- what is the value of the registry key HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\services\msahci\Start ?
- which HDD/ODD is connected to what SATA ports ?

_________________
Borders? I have never seen one. But I have heard they exist in the minds of some people. -- Thor Heyerdahl
Durch einen Stich bereits geschafft, erschlafft und ohne Saft und Kraft! -- Donald, examining a Deflator Dextrospirillus
Pun
DBB Admin




PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 9:51 pm View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

STRESSTEST wrote:
way to low


I know, but why?
Pun
DBB Admin




PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 10:00 pm View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

Grendel wrote:


- in your BIOS, under Integrated Peripherals --> On-Chip ATA Devices, what is RAID Mode set to ?
- what is the value of the registry key HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\services\msahci\Start ?
- which HDD/ODD is connected to what SATA ports ?


Let me check that.

BTW, just ran the game for an hour with the chip clocked to 173 x 21 at stock voltages and it purrs like a kitten. Haven't heard the cpu cooler ramp up yet.

Grendel
Ninja Admin




PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 10:13 pm View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

That should come out way better than 7.3... ;P Waiting for answers... Wink

_________________
Borders? I have never seen one. But I have heard they exist in the minds of some people. -- Thor Heyerdahl
Durch einen Stich bereits geschafft, erschlafft und ohne Saft und Kraft! -- Donald, examining a Deflator Dextrospirillus
Pun
DBB Admin




PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 10:20 pm View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

Grendel wrote:
A few questions:

- in your BIOS, under Integrated Peripherals --> On-Chip ATA Devices, what is RAID Mode set to ?

IDE

- what is the value of the registry key HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\services\msahci\Start ?

3

- which HDD/ODD is connected to what SATA ports ?

SATA 1 - Western Digital storage drive

SATA 2 - Samsung SSD

SATA 6 - DVD drive
Goto page 1, 2  Next
View previous topic :: View next topic  
All times are GMT - 6 Hours
Post new topic   Reply to topic
Jump to:  
   Descent BB Forum Index > Tech Forum > Looking to upgrade my 2009 system build

 
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Image hosting by postimage.org Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group