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Woodchip
Ace




PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 8:51 am View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

While for centuries, America has welcomed immigrants from all nations with open arms, those same immigrants gladly became Americans first while keeping their cultural identity secondary as a proud example of their past.
In the last 30 years or so we have seen a shift. Now we see illegal Mexicans promoting their culture as primary and being American as secondary.

In England they have the same problem. The Muslims immigrating in choose to live separate from english culture and are promoting Islamic life over the host countries norms. This has become enough of a problem that Englands prime minister David Cameron has stated:

"At a security conference in Munich, he argued the UK needed a stronger national identity to prevent people turning to all kinds of extremism. He also signalled a tougher stance on groups promoting Islamist extremism. "

"Let's properly judge these organisations: Do they believe in universal human rights - including for women and people of other faiths? Do they believe in equality of all before the law? Do they believe in democracy and the right of people to elect their own government? Do they encourage integration or separatism? These are the sorts of questions we need to ask. Fail these tests and the presumption should be not to engage with organisations," he added."

So my question to you is, do cultures that want to remain separate and not take on the identity of the country they emigrate to cause problems in the long run? Not only does England's prime minister think so but so does France's Nicolas Sarkozy when he ordered the expulsion of illegal Gypsy immigrants. In the past Sarkozy is on record as saying:

"For immigrants to stay, they will have to demonstrate respect for French norms, such as equality between men and women. "If a wife is kept hostage at home without learning French, the whole family will be asked to leave [the country]," said Mr. Sarkozy, who proposes to rank countries to determine the desirability of their immigrants."

France is not alone:

"The Danes have brought in immigration laws that are stricter still, all but ending their liberal refugee program and discouraging even temporary workers"

"In Germany, which pioneered the guest-worker program in Europe, a sea change has occurred. "Multicultural societies have only ... functioned peacefully in authoritarian states. To that extent it was a mistake for us to bring guest workers from foreign cultures into the country at the beginning of the 1960s," said former German chancellor Helmut Schmidt. Germany's new Chancellor, Angela Merkel, shares his view: "The notion of multiculturalism has fallen apart," she said prior to her election. "Anyone coming here must respect our constitution and tolerate our Western and Christian roots."

"The Netherlands, which has cut immigration in half since 2001, is deporting 26,000 rejected asylum seekers and keeping new arrivals in detention camps. Under proposed legislation, women will be banned from wearing the burka anywhere in public, not just in schools and public buildings as French legislation has it. "I believe we have been far too tolerant for too long, especially being too tolerant of intolerance, and we only got intolerance back," said Member of Dutch Parliament Geert Wilders"

So it would seem, especially in the case of Muslims, there is a backlash growing and the days of meekly accepting a form of Muslim jingoism is now out. I just wonder how long it will take for America and Canada to realize this also.
Bunyip
DBB Staff




PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 10:09 am View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

Ack.

I agree with Woodchip.

I've long been concerned about Transnational Progressivism. In my opinion it's a corrupt and cynical philosophy. Quite frankly it scares me, and it is heartening to see that European nations are waking up to reality. The potential for a true dystopia (even a return to a system close to feudalism) is surprisingly strong...

A cohesive national identity is necessary to protect the values and rights that a Nation is supposed to stand for. If each little group is allowed to go their own direction and enforce their own rules and values in preference to the societal norms, you don't have a Sovereign State, you have a herd of cats. That said, there is plenty of room within the USA for people to live how they choose - provided they stay within certain broad guidelines. I'm distressed that we keep appeasing people by loosening those guidelines. We can start with insisting that you speak the language if you want to be a citizen. I'm flexible enough on that to allow Spanish-speakers as well as English speakers - but let's stop printing everything in French, Italian, Portuguese, German, Korean, Mandarin, Cantonese, Japanese, Haitian Creole, Jamaican Patois, and Ebonics.

I agree that if you want to live here, you're an American, with your cultural/religious/whatever identity a distinct subordinate to your American identity. This isn't jingoistic rah-rah nationalism, it's about being part of the team, and NOT a member of what is effectively a fifth column - or rather a group of numerous fifth column ideologies all in conflict with each other (back to the herd of cats).

_________________
BELIEVE NOTHING, no matter where you read it, or who has said it,
not even if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason
and your own common sense. - GAUTAMA BUDDHA
Grendel
Ninja Admin




PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 1:24 pm View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

Welcome to the real world. This has been the case ever since humans migrated. What's different ? More people. Numbers are getting high enough to even get noticed by politicians. Just wait until the chinese open up -- what are we gonna do w/ all those people ?

_________________
Borders? I have never seen one. But I have heard they exist in the minds of some people. -- Thor Heyerdahl
Durch einen Stich bereits geschafft, erschlafft und ohne Saft und Kraft! -- Donald, examining a Deflator Dextrospirillus
Bunyip
DBB Staff




PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 1:38 pm View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

I beg to differ, immigration is nothing new, even in large numbers: There were over 3 million Italian immigrants to the USA in the early part of the century, rivalled only by the Irish and German immigrants. All of whom are now "Americans" first. Some with good beer, some with good food, some with good whiskey.

Admittedly if 1 billion (or more) Chinese decided to come on over, it would be a whole different story...but most of the Asian immigrants have managed to become Americans, rather than X ethnicity in exile in America.

_________________
BELIEVE NOTHING, no matter where you read it, or who has said it,
not even if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason
and your own common sense. - GAUTAMA BUDDHA
Grendel
Ninja Admin




PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 2:26 pm View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

Ah, "Little Italy", "Chinatown" and such. When I was visiting the chinese quarter in SF a year or so ago I got some funny looks from a few store attendants when I was asking something. Didn't get a response I could understand tho. I'm sure a good chunk of the earlier immigrants got more or less "amercanized" by now. About as sure the current immigrants will "blend in" over the next 50 or so years. ;P

There was lots of immigration during roman times and way earlier BTW.

_________________
Borders? I have never seen one. But I have heard they exist in the minds of some people. -- Thor Heyerdahl
Durch einen Stich bereits geschafft, erschlafft und ohne Saft und Kraft! -- Donald, examining a Deflator Dextrospirillus
Zuruck
Ace




PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 2:28 pm View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

Wow I learned something today. Unfortunately it didn't come from this thread.

Bored today woodchip? I think you've posted this same crap before; perhaps on the day Obama was sworn in. Sadly, all your examples are inherently false. Unlike France and those countries, America does not have a singular identity. In fact, if you want to say that immigrants should respect what we have here, then we should all be speaking hundreds of Native American languages. Oh wait...that won't fit the narrative.

Muslims have the right to practice their religions, it's right there in the document that you think you know better than everyone else. They have to conform to laws that may or may not restrict their religion, but it ends there. I know you guys want to think that Islam is the enemy, but it's not. Disastrous American foreign policy is why we have this problem.

Just the other day, your best friend Sarah Palin called out Obama for not doing anything in Egypt right? What the hell is he supposed to do? Whether we like it or not, Egypt is its own country; they kinda get to do what they want. Now if we hadn't shipped billions of dollars in military equipment to them for the last thirty years, I'd feel a little better about it. If things go how they seem to be, Egyptians will be choosing the future of their country. It sickens me that some people, like Sarah Palin, feel as though America has any say in the matter. We really don't....BUT...we will most likely meddle in their affairs and cause a once sympathetic population to hate us...just like every other middle eastern country.
B-
Cocked & Locked




PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 3:15 pm View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

Islam is a political movement under the guise of religion. Nothing could be more dangerous to America.

_________________
i found peace mother fucker-Jbomb
..its fucking retarded to be a bigot. so chew on that....faggots.- jbomb
Zuruck
Ace




PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 3:28 pm View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

dude it's been around a lot longer than that. it works for people to keep you guys scared of big bad islam so that you stay in line. Those people that caught us looking the other day ten years ago, they didn't do it because this country is rich and free. That's ludicrous...they did it because we've always strong armed our way wherever and whenever we wanted. They got their one chance to really drive the knife in and they succeeded.

And by your post B, wouldn't Christianity also be a political movement under the guise of religion? Wouldn't all religions fall under this? Shit, now I'm scared for reals! You goddamn religious zealots making my life more dangerous!
B-
Cocked & Locked




PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 4:09 pm View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

May your head be the first. Smile

_________________
i found peace mother fucker-Jbomb
..its fucking retarded to be a bigot. so chew on that....faggots.- jbomb
Zuruck
Ace




PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 4:24 pm View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

Please don't tell me that you actually believe that Muslim terrorists are going to start cutting peoples' heads off here in America?

Yikes man. I take back my first statement. American foreign policy isn't the biggest threat, dumb-fuck Americans are the biggest threat to this country.
B-
Cocked & Locked




PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 4:36 pm View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

Quote:
dumb-fuck Americans are the biggest threat to this country.


The ironing.

Laughing

_________________
i found peace mother fucker-Jbomb
..its fucking retarded to be a bigot. so chew on that....faggots.- jbomb
Zuruck
Ace




PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 6:09 pm View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

I like that one.

Considering the recent spate of anti-swear attitudes on this board, I apologize B that I used language that you may have found detestable. I was merely expressing my incredulity at ill-informed Americans. Love you.

On a side note: Welcome woodchip...you can post here freely. I will, of course, be here to fight you on most issues. But that's only because I'm still mad at life
B-
Cocked & Locked




PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 7:21 pm View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

I'm 'unoffendable' and peaceful. Now If you would have made fun of my god by way of comic strip, I might be inclined to issue death threats... wait, wut!?


Honestly, Zuruck.. I appreciate the apology. I've chalked up the difference in viewpoints as being from two different worlds.

_________________
i found peace mother fucker-Jbomb
..its fucking retarded to be a bigot. so chew on that....faggots.- jbomb
Spidey
Hotshot




PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 11:32 pm View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

I think you have the right to come and live in America if…(not to split all the hairs, concerning the legal aspects)

1. You learn English.
2. You obey the laws.

Beyond that…if you don’t really wish to “fit in” well that’s your choice, part of freedom.

_________________
Better to be pissed off, than to be pissed on.
Bunyip
DBB Staff




PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 10:28 am View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

Spidey summed up my feelings... although I am willing to make an exception for Spanish as well...

_________________
BELIEVE NOTHING, no matter where you read it, or who has said it,
not even if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason
and your own common sense. - GAUTAMA BUDDHA
Behemoth
DBB Staff




PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 12:21 pm View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

What i'm glad is that at least some are getting the nerve to actually say no, it's a sad sob story when one is forced to leave their homeland and if it were me and i had nowhere else to go i'd want the same but the fact is, having too much cultural influence in one place is NOT a good or healthy thing.
Woodchip
Ace




PostPosted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 7:39 am View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

Grendel wrote:
Ah, "Little Italy", "Chinatown" and such. When I was visiting the chinese quarter in SF a year or so ago I got some funny looks from a few store attendants when I was asking something. Didn't get a response I could understand tho. I'm sure a good chunk of the earlier immigrants got more or less "amercanized" by now. About as sure the current immigrants will "blend in" over the next 50 or so years. ;P

There was lots of immigration during roman times and way earlier BTW.


Well the difference is, the American Chinese even tho they have their enclaves, aren't trying to turn us into ChinaAmerica. They aren't flying planes into buildings and beheading people who don't believe as they do. Yes immigration is a constant flow but we are discussing what you do when you emigrate to a new country. Do you strive to be a Roman or try to tear your newly adopted country down into something else.
Woodchip
Ace




PostPosted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 7:59 am View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

Zuruck wrote:
Wow I learned something today. Unfortunately it didn't come from this thread.

Bored today woodchip? I think you've posted this same crap before; perhaps on the day Obama was sworn in. Sadly, all your examples are inherently false. Unlike France and those countries, America does not have a singular identity. In fact, if you want to say that immigrants should respect what we have here, then we should all be speaking hundreds of Native American languages. Oh wait...that won't fit the narrative.


Wow. Your ability to read and comprehend are still diminishing. The OP is about other countries understanding that trying to be all touchy feel'y by allowing immigrants to opt out of the countries culture and actively promote the culture they fled from is not working.

Zuruck wrote:
Muslims have the right to practice their religions, it's right there in the document that you think you know better than everyone else. They have to conform to laws that may or may not restrict their religion, but it ends there. I know you guys want to think that Islam is the enemy, but it's not. Disastrous American foreign policy is why we have this problem.


Way to shallow man. No one says anything about practicing their religion is to be banned. It is when things like "Honor Killings" happen solely because the child is becoming to westernized and then fellow Muslims hide the guy because the murderer was practicing Sharia law and therefor must be protected...are when things become out of hand. If you fled your country of birth because you were being persecuted, why would you come to a western country and turn into the monster you fled?

No one said Islam is the enemy. We (I) have said extremist Islam is the enemy. Just as extremist Christianity via the neo-nazis or the Klu Klux Klan is a enemy. I wouldn't want any of the above to shape what ours or any culture is. Would you?

Our foreign policy is a scapegoat so stop throwing that canard out. would Egypt have been any better if we gave them no aid? We give Iran no aid and look where they are. Curious how the people in the streets of Egyp, Tunisia and Yemen are clamoring for democracy and not "America Out".
Nice try.
Woodchip
Ace




PostPosted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 8:02 am View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

Zuruck wrote:

On a side note: Welcome woodchip...you can post here freely. I will, of course, be here to fight you on most issues. But that's only because I'm still mad at life


Without you Bud, life would not be nearly as interesting. Stay mad ( at least a little bit )
Woodchip
Ace




PostPosted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 8:13 am View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

On a side note some Texas school district got some federal grant money and was planning on making it mandatory to teach Arabic language and culture. Luckily the parents found out in time:

"A plan to make lessons in Arabic and Arab culture mandatory for students in some Texas schools has been put on hold, following feedback from parents."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/02/08/arabic-classes-texas-school_n_820159.html

This is the exact crap that is the point of this thread. Making people learn about a select cultural as opposed to choosing to learn just fails. Painting a culture in rosy terms because you would be afraid of some wacko Imam issuing a fatwa against you would be a disservice to the students as well:

"Some parents had concerns that Islam would be included in the curriculum, but an official stressed that the curriculum would not be about religion, but about Arabic language and culture."

Seriously, how would you separate the religion from the culture? And you wonder why some educators need to be fired.
Grendel
Ninja Admin




PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 12:58 am View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

Woodchip wrote:
Well the difference is, the American Chinese even tho they have their enclaves, aren't trying to turn us into ChinaAmerica. They aren't flying planes into buildings and beheading people who don't believe as they do. Yes immigration is a constant flow but we are discussing what you do when you emigrate to a new country.

Correct. Last time I checked the guys flying planes into buildings and beheading people aren't part of the immigration integration problem you started the topic about. Feel free to open another topic if you want to talk about terrorism.

_________________
Borders? I have never seen one. But I have heard they exist in the minds of some people. -- Thor Heyerdahl
Durch einen Stich bereits geschafft, erschlafft und ohne Saft und Kraft! -- Donald, examining a Deflator Dextrospirillus
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