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Jess
Hotshot




PostPosted: Wed Dec 08, 2010 5:06 pm View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

Zuruck wrote:
But of course, I should remember that he is from Texas and people are just fucking nuts down there.


I don't normally comment in E&C but your blanket generalization of all Texans is a tad annoying.

I don't know a lot of people here that own guns however, I do know plenty of people who want to retain their right to own guns.

There are people everywhere to take the law into their own hands regardless of whether they have a gun or not; a gun just makes it easier depending on the situation.

I would argue that allowing private citizens doesn't necessarily make it a safer world, but banning private ownership of guns (if even possible) would do just the opposite for some of the reasons stated above.

I feel silly even debating it anyway considering I really don't think it would ever happen.
Ferno
BDSM Fanatic




PostPosted: Wed Dec 08, 2010 10:56 pm View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

Neo wrote:
Unless you understand the point Zuruck is trying to make, you can't say that he doesn't understand something.


and you do? Judging by your later replies, i'd have to say you don't have a clue about these kind of situations.

I understand his position just fine, but the fact is he's never been around any of the situations that we have. Sure, he may read it and know it but he doesn't truly understand what goes through a persons' mind when they are involved with it.

If you end up in any of these kinds of circumstances, and I hope you never do, you'll instantly rethink how much the criminal's life is worth. especially when he intends to do you harm.


now quit pulling the perspective angle again. it's not helping you any.
Hattrick
Hog Whisperer




PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 6:54 am View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

Neo wrote:
Hat, you got half of it backwards. The criminal is worth much more than some cheap trinket... it makes it easier to do the right thing when you consider this.


I stand by my statement.

Criminals < dog shit

_________________
I was born ok the first time!
wisdom comes with age. Sometimes age comes alone.
Bunyip
DBB Staff




PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 8:17 am View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

Hattrick: To quote Tolkien: "Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them?" I don't think thievery should carry a death sentence unless other circumstances intervene...

Zuruck wrote:
I guess that's the difference between me and you Bun. Other people's suffering doesn't make me the slightest bit happy or smug.


Ok Saint Zuruck. We will (laughingly) postulate that you would never, ever ever experience that brief feeling that amounts to "See... that's what you get for being an asshole". Sorry for doubting you. When is the Canonization party? I will make you some nifty hand-made glass halo charms.

_________________
BELIEVE NOTHING, no matter where you read it, or who has said it,
not even if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason
and your own common sense. - GAUTAMA BUDDHA
Zuruck
Ace




PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 11:26 am View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

The party was last week Bun...did I not send you an evite?

After reading what d3Jake said, I realize that my example was a bit extreme and wasn't a good case to focus on.

Hattrick I'm really curious about your ordeal. I'd love to read about it. What city do you live in and about when did it happen? Would love to read the police reports about it.

To those of you that wonder where some of my anti gun sentiment may originate...I was in this bar, on this night. Jeff served many a good beer.

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2001-04-15/news/0104150360_1_firearms-charged-fair-condition
Ferno
BDSM Fanatic




PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 1:44 pm View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

so then I got one simple question for you Zuruck:

when was the last time a felon started to obey the law?
Krom
DBB Admin




PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 1:47 pm View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

I don't think anyone here is against the idea of keeping guns out of the hands of criminals and that bar shooting is exactly why. The guy simply should not have had any guns since he was a convicted felon, but keeping guns out of the hands of determined criminals is practically impossible.

Would you be making the same argument if someone either in the staff or a patron had pulled out a shotgun and prematurely ended the shooting spree with just one more shot without anyone else getting hurt? The rest of us are against gun control because we know that no amount of it is going to keep them out of the hands of criminals, and the fewer ordinary honest people that have guns the more powerful and more dangerous it makes the criminals who will get them anyway.

I am 100% for stuff that makes it harder for criminals to have guns so long as it doesn't make it any more difficult for an honest citizen to have one. Because one thing you can count on is that the criminals will not follow the rules.

_________________
(19:11) [D3k]Gooberman: pffft, I didnt get owned baal, you just got 60 lucky fusion shots
Zuruck
Ace




PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 1:52 pm View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

You know, it doesn't really even matter what I think. Like you said before Krom, there is no possible way to eliminate all the guns in society. Combine that and the Supreme Court ruling and it's just the way it is. I don't agree with it, but that's the way our country is set up. I don't have to agree with everything but that doesn't mean that it should be illegal. I just wish people were smarter with their weapons.

Trigger locks aren't an infringement upon your freedoms. It keeps your curious seven year old son from blowing his head off..stuff like that bothers me. That guy at the bar just seemed to be another loud drunk getting kicked out but he decided to come back and get his revenge.

As for your question, the difference here is that someone was in immediate danger. That guy in Texas was not, he proactively went out and shot those guys. So yeah, a lot of it depends on the circumstances. I was uninjured unless you count a broken nose from someone's knee, but people died that night. I wish Barry had been there, he would have saved the day I bet.

Oh and Jess...yeah Texas sucks. The Spanish didn't want it, the Mexicans didn't want, the United States doesn't want it. Anytime Rick Perry wants to do the secession thing again I'm all for it.
Perediablo
Ace




PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 3:46 pm View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

Zuruck wrote:
Oh and Jess...yeah Texas sucks. The Spanish didn't want it, the Mexicans didn't want, the United States doesn't want it. Anytime Rick Perry wants to do the secession thing again I'm all for it.


Why do you say that? Do you live in Texas? You obviously have no idea about the history of Texas or how it came to be. Maybe you should come on down here to Texas and you might just have fun. What I am getting from your generalization is you think I am some crazy stupid hick. I've been around the world, and I picked Texas to reside because it is a wonderful place. You are entitled to your opinion, but be prepared for the retaliation.

_________________
"To design is to communicate clearly by whatever means you can control or master." _Milton Glaser
Krom
DBB Admin




PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 4:02 pm View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

Zuruck wrote:
I wish Barry had been there, he would have saved the day I bet.

No he would have accomplished nothing so long as he was observing the Chicago gun ban that was in effect at the time.

_________________
(19:11) [D3k]Gooberman: pffft, I didnt get owned baal, you just got 60 lucky fusion shots
Ferno
BDSM Fanatic




PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 4:09 pm View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

Quote:
Trigger locks aren't an infringement upon your freedoms. It keeps your curious seven year old son from blowing his head off


This brings up two questions.

One: why do you have your gun loaded with a round already chambered?

Two: how did your seven year old access it?
Zuruck
Ace




PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 6:11 pm View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

Heh...as luck would have it, Elgin is not within Chicago city limits and he would have been ok.

Ferno, quit smoking that bunk weed up in Canada.
Ferno
BDSM Fanatic




PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 11:44 pm View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

Zuruck wrote:
Ferno, quit smoking that bunk weed up in Canada.


strong words from someone who won't answer a direct question.
Zuruck
Ace




PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 11:55 pm View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

Your question made no sense.
Neo
[deleted]




PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 12:59 am View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

[Wait, I don't get it. Why is this a "debate?" Do people exist who think gun control is a good idea? ^_~]


Yeah, and apparently Texans like redundancy, hence 'blanket generalization?' o_O

Ferno wrote:
Neo wrote:
Unless you understand the point Zuruck is trying to make, you can't say that he doesn't understand something.


and you do? Judging by your later replies, i'd have to say you don't have a clue about these kind of situations.


Well that's not surprising, since Zuruck had a good point to make and you assume he doesn't understand what he's talking about.

Stop trying to play the "experience" card. It's not helping you.
Flip
Ace




PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 1:59 am View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

Someone breaks into my house at night while me and my family are there, he's gonna die. No hesitation at all from me because I'm not gonna allow even the slightest chance of him getting the upper hand. If their running away from the neighbors house, I'm calling 911.
As far as worrying about 7 year olds and gun accidents. I have the perfect remedy for that. I think most if not all accidents that happen concerning children is because they were not educated properly. The parents get a gun, store it somewhere and tell that child to never touch it. The kid has no idea what it's capable of, only that it must be cool as hell because it's offlimits to them. Take him to a range somewhere, fill some gallon milk jugs up with water and hand him a 12 guage shotgun. Aim, point and shoot and I'll bet it will be another 3-4 years before you can even force that kid to pick another one up and fire it. I've got 4 and it's worked for everyone of them. Take away the curiosity factor and show them firsthand it's destructive power, and they will instantly gain the respect needed for handling firearms.
Krom
DBB Admin




PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 9:04 am View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

Flip wrote:
Proper Education.

x2

_________________
(19:11) [D3k]Gooberman: pffft, I didnt get owned baal, you just got 60 lucky fusion shots
Perediablo
Ace




PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 9:55 am View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

Krom wrote:
Flip wrote:
Proper Education.

x2


x3

_________________
"To design is to communicate clearly by whatever means you can control or master." _Milton Glaser
Bunyip
DBB Staff




PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 10:43 am View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

a gun safe and/or trigger locks if there are kids in the house is just common sense. In fact if they're not in place, you're breaking the law in much of the country.

_________________
BELIEVE NOTHING, no matter where you read it, or who has said it,
not even if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason
and your own common sense. - GAUTAMA BUDDHA
Krom
DBB Admin




PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 10:59 am View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

I agree with the safe, also the right kind of gun safe makes even more sense because that way if someone does decide to burglarize your house while you are away they are far less likely to be able to steal your gun(s) which provides clear benefits to society.

_________________
(19:11) [D3k]Gooberman: pffft, I didnt get owned baal, you just got 60 lucky fusion shots
Flip
Ace




PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 12:35 pm View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

A gun safe or trigger lock renders the weapon useless in a defensive situation. I keep mine hidden, safety off, and unchambered. When I leave the house it's usually with me and I keep all the ammo for my other firearms locked up. The safe/trigger lock sounds like a good idea, but if someone kicks in your front door at 3:00 in the morning, and your sound asleep, no way will you have time to fully arm that weapon.
Bunyip
DBB Staff




PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 12:54 pm View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

That depends on the safe - but we're not talking about weapons which are under your personal control... so what was your point again, because obviously a gun hidden in the bedroom is useless if you're in the kitchen and a bad guy is between you and the gun... so therefore your weapons, as a responsible gun user, are always under your control, right?

_________________
BELIEVE NOTHING, no matter where you read it, or who has said it,
not even if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason
and your own common sense. - GAUTAMA BUDDHA
d3jake
Ace




PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 1:50 pm View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

Proper Education++

_________________
"You don't need a deity floating among high with a huge fucking bat to understand the difference between right and wrong." -MD-2389
Ferno
BDSM Fanatic




PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 2:14 pm View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

Zuruck wrote:
Your question made no sense.


the point behind the question I asked was this: when a felon starts obeying the law, they no longer are a felon.

How does that make no sense to you?

Neo: actually, no. he did not have a good point at all. and I didn't 'assume' he didn't understand. It was plain to see that he didn't understand what was going on and where we were coming from.

"experience card"? really? you really want me to share the horrors of being the victim of a home invasion with you? You really want to see the fear that goes through a persons' mind when they suddenly find themselves facing a the business end of a twelve gauge shotgun two feet from their face??

Christ boy, you're biting off more than you can chew here.


Quote:
Aim, point and shoot and I'll bet it will be another 3-4 years before you can even force that kid to pick another one up and fire it


Great solution, and very simple too. I love it.
Neo
[deleted]




PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 2:44 pm View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

Ferno wrote:
boy, you're biting off more than you can chew here.


Whatever lets you sleep at night.

Apparently, the only reason I should care about your (projected) fears and how you handled yourself during a home invasion is to know what not to do (but it's already well known).

Have you shown that the actions you would take during such an event are really the right thing to do? Or are you simply arguing your point based on emotion? How do you know how much I can chew if we've never met?

Sorry, "boy," but I've already seen how other people react even when shown undeniable evidence of something (regardless of whether this was presented here or not), many of them start talking about how fearful people were when something happened as if that can actually support their case.
Flip
Ace




PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 2:44 pm View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

Safe storage was only touched on briefly if I'm not mistaken. More of this debate has been when deadly force is warranted, and that's what I addressed.

I keep my firearm nearby when I'm in my house, not strapped to my side obviously, that would seem a little extreme. Your analogy is a little absurd because it's unrealistic to think that an attacker could break into your house while your awake without your noticing. I'm pretty sure in the most likely of situations that you could make it to where your gun is hidden before he made complete entry into the the house. A much more likely scenario. That is unless it's stored in a locked safe or a trigger lock is installed;) As far as someone breaking in while your asleep, the gun is very close at that time ,seeing as how I'm laying right on top of it Smile. At any rate, just because you have a firearm at your disposal doesn't mean your 100% safe anyways. It just increases your odds of survival. I say that because your scenario, if not at all likely, is still a possibility.
Zuruck
Ace




PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 3:05 pm View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

Ferno wrote:
How does that make no sense to you?


Because not every felon is a bloodthirsty maniac bent on the destruction of mankind. As for your second comment, if you knew anything at all you would know that in America, once you are a felon you are always a felon. Felony convictions are not erased from your record.

What were they after, your amazing race car collection?
Bee
Miss Priss




PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 3:12 pm View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

I wonder if B- is reading this. Wink

Bee
Neo
[deleted]




PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 3:24 pm View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

Zuruck, you better stop being so pure-hearted or people will start appreciating you. ^_~ You don't want people to appreciate you, do you? Scary, I know. ^_~
Ferno
BDSM Fanatic




PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 10:05 pm View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

Zuruck wrote:
Because not every felon is a bloodthirsty maniac bent on the destruction of mankind. As for your second comment, if you knew anything at all you would know that in America, once you are a felon you are always a felon. Felony convictions are not erased from your record.


That's why they're called ex-felons. You should have been able to make that distinction.

What were they after? Silverware. Drugs. And anything else they could pawn. And all the while they kept asking where the crack was.


Neo:

Quote:
Sorry, "boy," but I've already seen how other people react even when shown undeniable evidence of something (regardless of whether this was presented here or not), many of them start talking about how fearful people were when something happened as if that can actually support their case.


you really think i'm going to post one of those cookie cutter "here's what not to do" messages?

Look bud. The fear is real. no getting around that. You won't ever understand it unless you've been through it. All the advice in the world sounds great but it falls apart under the real thing, simply because you don't know whether or not they've planned it, or broke into the wrong place, or are on a drug fueled rampage. you also don't know whether their intentions are to simply rob, rob and rape, maim or kill. And you don't have any time to sit them down and ask them what they want to do.

If you have the ability to do something about it, you point your gun at them and make sure they understand that if they don't surrender you will fire.
Neo
[deleted]




PostPosted: Sat Dec 11, 2010 9:36 am View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

I would never pretend to know what someone else is going to say, especially if we've never met. I suggest you do the same. My reply was based on what you said and what could actually be gained by it IF you decided to talk about people's fears, since that was the last thing you said to me.

What you fear is your business, not mine. To say someone doesn't understand something when you're talking about reacting out of fear just makes you look like you are too sure of your own actions and makes you seem opinionated, like you think no one else knows what they're talking about unless they agree with you.
MD-2389
Insane!




PostPosted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 11:54 pm View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

Zuruck wrote:
That's fine and dandy Hattrick except the burglars in question were in an empty house. I get what you're saying about defending yourself, that's not the issue here. The issue for me is people, like the guy in Texas, that took the law into his own hands because he felt like it.

I know these debates are fruitless because there is no way to feasibly get guns out of society. But it's the mentality that I'm seeing here that bothers me, you guys seem to think that for any crime killing the perpetrator is an acceptable option. You have the right to defend yourself by any means necessary, I agree with that. But I don't believe you have the right to defend your bicycle by any means necessary.

From what I can tell, you guys are all adults. But the lack of moral equivalence that you all seem to share is just downright scary and disgusting. Stealing a necklace from an empty house and murdering someone are completely different, that's why the punishments are also incredibly different. Leaving the general public to decide the fate of someone is way too dangerous.


Wow, nice job of taking it to the extreme, without even thinking about what you're typing. Tell me, while you were raeg typing, did it ever occur to you that maybe he thought they might try to either a) rob him next or b) hide out in his home, and hold him hostage? He didn't know if they were armed or not, and IMO took appropriate action. It wasn't like he just decided to go outside and go "Hey guys, come check this shit out!", and then blew them away the second they set foot on his property. If that were the case, then yeah I'd say he should've been charged for murder. However, what he did, and that scenario are completely different situations entirely. What he did is classed as self defense, which he was completely justified in doing.

When it comes to home defense, and criminals, you don't fucking chance it! You just don't know what they're going to do, or what they're capable of.
Zuruck
Ace




PostPosted: Tue Dec 14, 2010 2:55 pm View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

Hey MD, why don't you read all the posts instead of reading one and thinking you've got it all figured out. The guy called the cops, they told him to stay inside, he got his gun, went outside and blew them both away. They were not trying to enter his house or steal anything of his. But yeah, we've already passed this part of the conversation. But thanks for your contributions!
Ferno
BDSM Fanatic




PostPosted: Tue Dec 14, 2010 10:50 pm View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

Zuruck wrote:
Hey MD, why don't you read all the posts instead of reading one and thinking you've got it all figured out. The guy called the cops, they told him to stay inside, he got his gun, went outside and blew them both away. They were not trying to enter his house or steal anything of his. But yeah, we've already passed this part of the conversation. But thanks for your contributions!



yeah, i'm sure the crooks would have answered with their intentions if he yelled out "Are you coming to my house?"

/facepalm
Neo
[deleted]




PostPosted: Tue Dec 14, 2010 11:19 pm View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

You just like hurting people, ferno. Razz
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