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TechPro
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 02, 2010 8:44 pm View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

AlphaDoG wrote:
TechPro wrote:
I use NetFlix quite a bit and I'd say only about 10 to 15 % of the discs arrive too scratched and only about 5% are too cracked to use.


Hit and miss?

Actually not that bad and feels like just an occasional inconvenience. Either way, it's a better track record than I've seen with a lot of rental services plus it's cheaper than buying stuff I might not like or may seldom watch again.

Plus the online viewing works really well and I enjoy that a lot.
Krom
DBB Admin




PostPosted: Thu Sep 02, 2010 8:57 pm View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

Somewhat relevant to the original subject: http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20100831/12024710844.shtml

_________________
(19:11) [D3k]Gooberman: pffft, I didnt get owned baal, you just got 60 lucky fusion shots
willkill
Ace




PostPosted: Fri Sep 03, 2010 5:42 am View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

Zuruck wrote:
I suppose so.
What are we even talking about now? Started with a guy upset that he got caught stealing and now we're debating the proper use of the hit / miss idiom.


yeh..if you can't bother to stay focused, stay the fck out. Razz

...and as I correctly recall, it started out with a guy seeking helpful advice. Not as you so crudely put it (w/out emoticons).
Should I remind you that slander, even on the internet, is still against the law? And you had the gall to berate me about a d/l?! heh...
I could have easily replied in a crude manner as well, you see? Civility, however, suits me fine. Leaves more raw nrg in storage.

At any rate, I contacted my provider and went in for a sit down with the personell for that area and now all is well. She did give me a paper to sign saying that "I would not knowingly do it again" and if I did "I understand I could face more serious charges"...hahah, scare tactics make me lol which I thankfully was able to contain while I was in her office. Very Happy

/me puts on coat made of civil and goad. Very Happy

_________________

If you're gonna bluff, be prepared to strike..fast, hard and often..leaving nothing undone.

RIP Dad Ben Thompson Jan.6,1941-May5,2009
Bee
Miss Priss




PostPosted: Fri Sep 03, 2010 12:09 pm View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

willkill wrote:
...hahah, scare tactics make me lol which I thankfully was able to contain while I was in her office. Very Happy


You know Will, something tells me you weren't laughing very much... way down deep inside. Wink

Bee
willkill
Ace




PostPosted: Fri Sep 03, 2010 9:13 pm View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

Lemme guess? A womans intuition? Wink

I concur, I was'nt really ready to "bust out laughin" but the thought of that threat being implied (knowing what type of stuff I have been through) is just enuff of a joke to chuckle me insides Very Happy

_________________

If you're gonna bluff, be prepared to strike..fast, hard and often..leaving nothing undone.

RIP Dad Ben Thompson Jan.6,1941-May5,2009
roid
Inane!




PostPosted: Fri Sep 03, 2010 9:29 pm View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

i highly suggest you change providers asap.

and this time use a blocklist like peerguardian or some other similar program - whatever's in vogue with the kids thesedays.

_________________
i'm here to ... uh,
willkill
Ace




PostPosted: Fri Sep 03, 2010 9:43 pm View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

change? but..what..why? According to there administration, I'm in good standing now and besides, I may have all the "tools for torrentz" but that stuff was really done more for the learning experience it provided than anything else. I'm not that way man, I don't look down on people who do it but I feel guilty inside about stuff like that. I would'nt want it done to me and I like to sleep peacefully at night Smile

_________________

If you're gonna bluff, be prepared to strike..fast, hard and often..leaving nothing undone.

RIP Dad Ben Thompson Jan.6,1941-May5,2009
roid
Inane!




PostPosted: Fri Sep 03, 2010 10:10 pm View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

Because your ISP is playing nanny.
Move to an ISP that minds it's own business, a proper ISP.

_________________
i'm here to ... uh,
willkill
Ace




PostPosted: Sat Sep 04, 2010 7:59 am View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

guess that will have to wait till another company is available in my area...I'm in the country and there's only one provider out here Sad

_________________

If you're gonna bluff, be prepared to strike..fast, hard and often..leaving nothing undone.

RIP Dad Ben Thompson Jan.6,1941-May5,2009
Zuruck
Ace




PostPosted: Tue Sep 07, 2010 8:16 pm View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

roid's right. the ISPs should mind their own business when people are using their product to steal.

so....willkill did you learn your lesson?
Flip
Ace




PostPosted: Tue Sep 07, 2010 8:40 pm View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

Looks like Will's chances of winning the lottery just went down. Razz
Krom
DBB Admin




PostPosted: Wed Sep 08, 2010 5:58 am View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

ISPs have worked their way in between a rock and a hard place right now. On one side they are increasingly having a big hand in media corporations and want to guarantee profits since a lot of them are cable companies and on the other hand some want to protect their subscribers from ultimately pointless lawsuits or lose subscribers to forced disconnects. Cable companies hate the idea of being just a "dumb pipe" that feeds data to the customer (aka net neutrality) and want to find a way to make their cable internet service work like their cable TV service does (which is the opposite of net neutrality).

The problem is if they start pushing a tiered system like cable TV or how cellular service works in the US; it lends a lot to the argument that they should become the internet police and should sue / disconnect users suspected of sharing stuff. It is a lot easier to stay in a safe harbor if you don't go out of your way to invent filtering systems that can control the content flowing over the pipe.

_________________
(19:11) [D3k]Gooberman: pffft, I didnt get owned baal, you just got 60 lucky fusion shots
willkill
Ace




PostPosted: Wed Sep 08, 2010 10:34 am View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

@ zurkruck(misspelling intentional)...I gotta lesson for ya boy...keyboard gangstas should stay outta grown folks business. <no emoticons>

And I don't gamble with the state, to many bad memories Razz

_________________

If you're gonna bluff, be prepared to strike..fast, hard and often..leaving nothing undone.

RIP Dad Ben Thompson Jan.6,1941-May5,2009
roid
Inane!




PostPosted: Wed Sep 08, 2010 8:30 pm View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

Zuruck wrote:
roid's right. the ISPs should mind their own business when people are using their product to steal.


ISPs should mind their own business, period.

I don't have cops following me around making sure i don't commit misdemeanours.
Not even people on parole (ie: known offenders) have that.
We don't want to live in a police state with our activities under constant surveillance.

And don't give me that "if you've got nothing to hide, you have nothing to worry about" bullshit. I have a reasonable expectation of personal privacy. I don't walk around the streets naked, i wear clothing even though i'm NOT hiding a semi-automatic weapon under my jacket.

_________________
i'm here to ... uh,
Spidey
Hotshot




PostPosted: Wed Sep 08, 2010 10:14 pm View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

The ISP may very well have been “minding its own business” but it got a complaint from one of its clients. At that point they had very little choice in the matter, regarding staying out of Will’s business.

I guess they could have told their complaining client to piss off, and go to the authorities instead.

_________________
Better to be pissed off, than to be pissed on.
Zuruck
Ace




PostPosted: Wed Sep 08, 2010 11:15 pm View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

I agree with Spidey? How long was I asleep last night?

Roid, I won't pull the "if you have nothing to hide" argument. Why? Because it's theft...that's not really an ok thing to do bro. The simple point is...if someone builds a product unless they expressly say it's free, it's not yours to just take because it's there.

I like my privacy too but when you're breaking the law and stealing another's property, what do you expect?
Bunyip
DBB Staff




PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2010 6:23 am View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

While I've got pretty strong feelings regarding the necessity for privacy, non-interference with networks, and net neutrality, the fact of the matter is that if you're involved in a peer-to-peer network and engaged in file sharing, it's pretty clear that you do not have what might legally be termed a "reasonable expectation of privacy". For the record, the letter objects to the TRANSMISSION of said content... So there is no proof of theft on the part of the original poster (although it's not a bad bet given the content cited).

As to file sharing, and what exactly constitutes stealing, that's another conversation. If you'd like to start a topic to discuss it, please feel free. In the meantime, I'd suggest it's time to get off the high horse here. Even just scratching the surface is to open a can of worms. Do you have figures on how many people download illegally, only to then purchase the content legally after determining that it is to their liking? How many of those would never have purchased said content if there was not an opportunity to "preview" it? How does that affect the incredibly inflated figures that the media mafia is so fond of quoting? Is it stealing to download a movie that you currently own on DVD? Does it become stealing if you lose the disc but still have the case? What if you lose both? What about that Pink Floyd cassette I bought in 1986 that is now unlistenable due to being flat worn out (if I even have a cassette player anymore)? Do the owners of IP have a right to profit again due to planned obsolescence and/or each time the media undergoes a technical upgrade? The list goes on and on...and on. and on....

In the meantime I think that content providers need to step up their game and evolve if they want to survive, rather than obstinately clinging to a model which was outdated in the 1970's. There is a lot of evidence that the "free" model works for most artists better than the "label" model ever did - and if you're like me you could give a fuck about the label - it's useless branding that rarely if ever makes any difference to the consumer.

_________________
BELIEVE NOTHING, no matter where you read it, or who has said it,
not even if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason
and your own common sense. - GAUTAMA BUDDHA
Spidey
Hotshot




PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2010 8:03 am View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

Stealing:

Taking something without the owners consent or permission.

It’s as simple as that, has nothing to do with legality or morality, or any of the other finer points you put on it.

Now you can delete this post, but I just had to point that out.

_________________
Better to be pissed off, than to be pissed on.
Krom
DBB Admin




PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2010 8:42 am View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

Bunyip wrote:
What about that Pink Floyd cassette I bought in 1986 that is now unlistenable due to being flat worn out (if I even have a cassette player anymore)? Do the owners of IP have a right to profit again due to planned obsolescence and/or each time the media undergoes a technical upgrade?


If they hadn't fucked up copyright law so much, it would probably be public domain by now and you could make as many copies as you like.

_________________
(19:11) [D3k]Gooberman: pffft, I didnt get owned baal, you just got 60 lucky fusion shots
Bunyip
DBB Staff




PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2010 9:14 am View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

Spidey: Oh, feel free to discuss your definition of stealing here too, if that's how you want to roll. If the OP wants me to split it off later I will, but it IS a whole different subject, really, since what the OP was told to do was stop SHARING...

As for your definition of stealing Spidey, it doesn't really address the complexities of intellectual property, does it? Not that you didn't know that when you posted... Leaving aside legality and morality, as you did, how can there be any "taking" when one creates a copy which does not in any way diminish the original? That's where we GET the legality so forth which surrounds intellectual property - not that it's all GOOD law, as Krom alludes to.

Krom: If they (well most of them) weren't still alive and kicking, I'd pretty much be in agreement...This copyright in perpetuity thing which has become the new norm is a bit ridiculous.

_________________
BELIEVE NOTHING, no matter where you read it, or who has said it,
not even if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason
and your own common sense. - GAUTAMA BUDDHA
Spidey
Hotshot




PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2010 4:39 pm View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

Well, I guess I should just be happy the fruits of “my” labor cannot be stolen using the internet, and then justified with excuses that wouldn’t stand up in court, if you were stealing from a brick and mortar.

Let me just borrow this CD while I copy it, I’ll bring it right back.

See that’s the first flaw in the copy argument (using the internet) …you shouldn’t have the material to copy in your hands in the first place. (please understand the concept of this, I understand the original never leaves the server, so you can try to make the argument that you never had the original, but just using the original in this way, adds up to the same thing)

As far as intellectual property, that’s something the legal system needs to deal with, but once something is determined to be someone’s property, it falls into the same category as any other property. If your making an argument that something isn’t really their property, then that’s an entirely different subject…personally I respect those particular rights, even tho I have no need for them myself.

BTW if your going to make a case that intellectual property isn’t really property…I can make a case that your car doesn’t really belong to you either.

…………………………

Please don’t split on my account…if the OP wants to split…just delete.

_________________
Better to be pissed off, than to be pissed on.
willkill
Ace




PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 12:06 pm View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

Looks like were on topic to me...I don't feel this thread should be limited to the discussion of 'what I should do after the fact'. That matter is settled.

There have been ALOT of valid points made (from both sides) thus far and I would like to see where it goes from here.

IMO, file sharing is not a crime due to the fact that it's just like a friend who loans me his brand new copy of "the latest big release" so I can enjoy it as well. Only difference with 'file sharing' is, instead of having to return it when done, I get to throw it away instead. This is where the scenario should end, in a perfect world. INSTEAD, because of unsavory scruples (poor moral values), improper upbringing, etc., etc., a person with a less than honorable mindset will take this 'data' and try to profit from it. THIS is where the problem begins.

/methinks the problem is not the actual sharing of information as much as it is the theft of information for profitable use.

_________________

If you're gonna bluff, be prepared to strike..fast, hard and often..leaving nothing undone.

RIP Dad Ben Thompson Jan.6,1941-May5,2009
Zuruck
Ace




PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 1:15 pm View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

Just so you know willkill, file sharing is theft if you keep a copy. Did you throw it away? Or did you keep it?

edit: So much of this crap would have been avoided had the media companies not fought this from the beginning. So much of the stupidity is on them...
Bunyip
DBB Staff




PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 1:41 pm View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

Actually the point I was making is that the rules and laws surrounding IP are particularly troublesome and very much less clear-cut than the laws surrounding physical property. I was never implying that the OP was or was not at fault here, just pointing out some glaring flaws in the whole concept. My feelings on the subject are somewhere between indignation at the amount of crap that is foisted upon us in an attempt to make money, and indignation at the fact that people feel like they can just take whatever they want for free, as long as it's only data.

_________________
BELIEVE NOTHING, no matter where you read it, or who has said it,
not even if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason
and your own common sense. - GAUTAMA BUDDHA
Skyalmian
Hotshot




PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 3:53 pm View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

Bunyip wrote:
the rules and laws surrounding IP are particularly troublesome and very much less clear-cut than the laws surrounding physical property.

This all deals with the ethereal and intangible, where duplicates and modifications are made with zero effort at [almost] the Speed of Thought, so yes the "rules and laws" which apply to physically tangible and not-easily-reproducable items are completely different and trying to force the rules of one system on another is futile and as we all know, thus far a total failure. Respect cannot be forced, which is what all the control is trying to do (and backfiring), and Predators / Parasites who are Service to Self at the expense of others will continue to profit off of broken systems.
Spidey
Hotshot




PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 4:38 pm View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

What I find ironic is…

People think you can’t own a concept/idea, but the essence of “ownership” is a concept/idea.

_________________
Better to be pissed off, than to be pissed on.
Krom
DBB Admin




PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 6:16 pm View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

If you want to know why pirates usually buy more media than non-pirates; its because media pirates have found a solution to filtering the good stuff they will buy from the bad stuff they won't buy. They have eliminated the risk of paying for something bad which is the main thing that keeps non-pirates from spending as liberally. That is why the "lost sales" argument is complete bullshit, if they never had the opportunity to watch it for free in the first place they never would have liked it enough to buy it in the second. In this era of piracy the sales of something more directly reflect how well received it is, rather than how well packaged it is.

People just seem to automatically think more money for the industry is a good thing, and a "loss of sales" is a bad thing. Have you ever watched the previews for every movie that comes out in a given year? When watching the vast majority of them I often find myself wondering what kind of complete moron thought it was a good idea to put a movie like that into production. These industries get way too much income for their own good and we get results like Avatar: a designed-by-committee turd with $400+ million dollars of polish. When has design-by-committee ever produced good creative media anyway?

Every piece of truly creative work is a risk. They call it "creative" because it hasn't been done before, and things that haven't been done before can't be guaranteed success so nobody wants to back them. That is why we often get bullshit 3D special effects movies with disgustingly shallow good vs evil plots that insult your intelligence, and video games that are just another fucking retarded rehash of the first person shooter with different skins, maps, more pretty effects and an even more tedious plot than the last one (if they bother with a plot at all).

So if you ask me, I definitely want to see an end to big budgets, big studios and big teams working on stuff. And I welcome a significant drop in sales for stuff that is complete crap and a waste of peoples time, that is how capitalism is supposed to work: bad products don't sell and good ones do. If Hollywood had a "satisfaction guaranteed or your money back" or any sort of warranty on the content of their products they would definitely go bankrupt because of it. The only reason they have been able to operate like they have producing a product as poor as they do is because they have had total control of every level of its production, distribution and consumption up till now.

_________________
(19:11) [D3k]Gooberman: pffft, I didnt get owned baal, you just got 60 lucky fusion shots
Spidey
Hotshot




PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 6:47 pm View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

Ehhh… I don’t know, my first instinct is to think the people downloading stuff are the people who have more desire to own and watch stuff.

Studies huh…I bet if you had a study, you might find out that people with light complexions steal more sunblock than the average person…

Just sayin…

_________________
Better to be pissed off, than to be pissed on.
Woodchip
Ace




PostPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2010 7:29 am View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

Well the basic answer would be to have the ISP ban any and all links to any and all file sharing sites. If the ISP allows the links then they (ISP) are complicit to any and all illegal file sharing.

As to "sharing" If I buy a game, play it to completion, is it wrong if my son or daughter then loads up the game on their laptop and plays it? Is it wrong if I give the game to a friend and he plays it? Now. so far no copies have been made as the users are all playing off the original disk. Next, is it illegal if I burn a copy of the game to prevent the Pink Floyd syndrome from happening and only use the copy to play off of? How about if I let my children use the copy? A friend? At what point does all this become illegal?
In Wills case his ISP allowed him access to the file sharing site. Will didn't buy anything so nothing was bought or sold and thus the commercial piracy aspect is negated.

I think any company has to realize that by making a product that can be easily duplicated are akin to a hard candy company where someone buys a bag of their product and then tosses the candy out at a 4th of July party.
With the advent of the electronic book readers, we will now have people making copies of books and giving them away. If book companies don't want their product pirated, they should never agree to putting their books onto a electronic platform.

The problem with games is, unlike buying a car where you can go look at one, kick the tires and take it for a test drive, you are pretty much stuck with it if it is a bad design. Perhaps if game makers were required to have a down loadable demo, then maybe there would be less "piracy"
Krom
DBB Admin




PostPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2010 11:26 am View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

Woodchip wrote:
Well the basic answer would be to have the ISP ban any and all links to any and all file sharing sites. If the ISP allows the links then they (ISP) are complicit to any and all illegal file sharing.

But here you are running down the slippery slope to censorship, do you really want the internet turning as rotten and controlled as cable TV is?

Woodchip wrote:
As to "sharing" If I buy a game, play it to completion, is it wrong if my son or daughter then loads up the game on their laptop and plays it? Is it wrong if I give the game to a friend and he plays it? Now. so far no copies have been made as the users are all playing off the original disk. Next, is it illegal if I burn a copy of the game to prevent the Pink Floyd syndrome from happening and only use the copy to play off of? How about if I let my children use the copy? A friend? At what point does all this become illegal?

It is legal under the condition that the copy of it that was installed on your system was uninstalled prior to giving it away. The way licenses work (for now) is you are guaranteed one install of it, but as long as you uninstall you can transfer it from any system to any other system. Software 'manufacturers' are hard at work to outlaw transferring of licenses at the moment but it'll still stick for a while. Some license agreements/copy protection systems allow you to install / activate the game a limited number of times (google: SecuROM) and after that point the game will no longer activate, you can usually call and get another couple of installs out of the key but generally beyond that the publisher will refuse to activate it (even though doing so should be illegal).

Woodchip wrote:
In Wills case his ISP allowed him access to the file sharing site. Will didn't buy anything so nothing was bought or sold and thus the commercial piracy aspect is negated.

I think any company has to realize that by making a product that can be easily duplicated are akin to a hard candy company where someone buys a bag of their product and then tosses the candy out at a 4th of July party.
With the advent of the electronic book readers, we will now have people making copies of books and giving them away. If book companies don't want their product pirated, they should never agree to putting their books onto a electronic platform.

The problem with games is, unlike buying a car where you can go look at one, kick the tires and take it for a test drive, you are pretty much stuck with it if it is a bad design. Perhaps if game makers were required to have a down loadable demo, then maybe there would be less "piracy"

There is really no good answer for this, a lot of games do have demos and yet still get heavily pirated. Games and movies/books are fairly different on this front. You can't really tell if a movie or a book is good until you have read/viewed the entire thing, but a game demo can often be enough to tell you if the full game will be worth your time. I'll say this, I am generally against game piracy (save for abandonware which you may not be able to get through any other means). I prefer to support the industry when reasonable, but I'm also generally against paying full price for a lot of modern games especially if they are unoriginal. Every few months some big budget FPS hits the market and everyone proclaims to be the next best thing. A few months later nobody speaks a word about it anywhere, like there was some sort of messy divorce that they don't want to talk about. I've skipped practically every big budget summer blockbuster game title to hit in the last 5 years, I haven't even bothered with the demos when they have one and I seriously don't think I've missed anything. If they are still being talked about half a year later and aren't just another generic FPS then I will usually try it out, and if it is good I'll buy it at a heavily discounted price.

Edit: hey look what article got posted yesterday: http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20100912/12212110968.shtml

_________________
(19:11) [D3k]Gooberman: pffft, I didnt get owned baal, you just got 60 lucky fusion shots
willkill
Ace




PostPosted: Wed Sep 22, 2010 11:51 am View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

Krom wrote:
hey look what article got posted yesterday: http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20100912/12212110968.shtml


One giant leap for big business...a step backward for mankind(consumers). Sad

_________________

If you're gonna bluff, be prepared to strike..fast, hard and often..leaving nothing undone.

RIP Dad Ben Thompson Jan.6,1941-May5,2009
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