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Bunyip
DBB Staff




PostPosted: Sat Mar 20, 2010 9:47 am View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

Smotie, I think you're confusing biology with physics and cosmology. Not to mention the fact that the Earth was formed around 4.5 billion years ago, and our best estimate is that the universe is about 3 times older than that. Interestingly enough, the evidence shows that life began prior to 3.5 billion years ago, in the form of single-celled organisms, so there has been life on earth for a LONG time.

I know all these "facts" and all this "evidence" is confusing to someone who has been taught that everything he needs to know is in one rather poorly-written, extremely confusing and self-contradictory book...Those people often find the straightforward nature of science baffling. Wink

_________________
BELIEVE NOTHING, no matter where you read it, or who has said it,
not even if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason
and your own common sense. - GAUTAMA BUDDHA
Smotie
The Wombat




PostPosted: Sat Mar 20, 2010 10:19 pm View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

I don't think you can call them facts Bun...seriously there is no evidence for the big bang or the origin of life according to the scientific method. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method. And I find science is anything but straighforward and I don't find the Bible self-contradictory or poorly written.
roid
Inane!




PostPosted: Sun Mar 21, 2010 3:26 am View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

yeah there's nothing, well cept for all this observable, empirical and measurable evidence:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bang#Observational_evidence


durrr

_________________
i'm here to ... uh,
Bunyip
DBB Staff




PostPosted: Sun Mar 21, 2010 6:04 am View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

Smotie wrote:
I don't think you can call them facts Bun...seriously there is no evidence for the big bang or the origin of life according to the scientific method. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method. And I find science is anything but straighforward and I don't find the Bible self-contradictory or poorly written.


Maybe you don't call them "facts" Smotie...but perhaps you could enlighten us as to how the facts you dispute are not evidence according to the scientific method? (BTW fixed your link, it was brokend)

The bible is the Literal infallible word of God...Bible contradictions
God is good... God Loves you! Bible Atrocities

There's lots and lots more. The so-called "God" of the bible makes Adolph Hitler seem like an amateur - and he's supposed to be the good guy!! Rape, mass murder, human sacrifice, killing of unborn children, the list goes on and on and on. Furthermore the bible is riddled with poor grammar and ambiguity, amongst it's many other faults. Apparently this holds true in the untranslated source material as well.

_________________
BELIEVE NOTHING, no matter where you read it, or who has said it,
not even if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason
and your own common sense. - GAUTAMA BUDDHA
Bunyip
DBB Staff




PostPosted: Sun Mar 21, 2010 9:23 am View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

...In an ironic turn of events, as I write this I sit in a pew "enjoying" an Anglican service.

_________________
BELIEVE NOTHING, no matter where you read it, or who has said it,
not even if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason
and your own common sense. - GAUTAMA BUDDHA
Floyd
Hotshot




PostPosted: Sun Mar 21, 2010 10:15 am View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

Smotie, please watch the "made easy" series i posted earlier. it saves you a lot of time asking and us a lot of time answering Smile (you've asked for a laymans explanation afterall ...)
the big bang is also explained there.
Thorne
Ace




PostPosted: Sun Mar 21, 2010 10:16 am View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

Bunyip wrote:
GE 3:1-7, 22-24 God allows Adam and Eve to be deceived by the Serpent (the craftiest of all of God's wild creatures). They eat of the "Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil," thereby incurring death for themselves and all of mankind for ever after. God prevents them from regaining eternal life, by placing a guard around the "Tree of Eternal Life." (Note: God could have done the same for the "Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil" in the first place and would thereby have prevented the Fall of man, the necessity for Salvation, the Crucifixion of Jesus, etc.)

I'll take the first one from your second link as an example. The main theme in all arguments against the Bible is an assumption of a non-scriptural nature to reality, and even self-contradictory reality. God could conceivably have kept anything bad from ever happening, but every man has a free will and God would have had to shield us from the ability or the opportunity to ever do anything wrong (that sounds like the Left's agenda). What good is a thing if it is untested? I've heard people argue that Satan is the good guy because he "set man free" (to perish in rebellion against the one that created us in the first place) (Roid, most recently brought it up), now this is saying that God is the bad guy for giving man free will. What? Your (it's not yours, but you're taking it up) idyllic world where there is never even opportunity to rebel against God does not exist within the realm of free will. You focus too much on the object of the tree itself and not on the ever-present aspect of obedience to the Creator.

The argument is self-contradictory or must exist within its own nonsensical reality. If you're willing to buy into things like this then it would be little wonder if you would put stock in other things in life that don't really make sense.

EDIT:
Should God have done with us like the Muslims do with their women and control our situation so exactly that there is never even the slightest potential opportunity to do wrong?

_________________
"Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might;
for there is no work or device or knowledge or wisdom in the grave where you are going."
Bunyip
DBB Staff




PostPosted: Sun Mar 21, 2010 8:12 pm View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

When suspension of disbelief is necessary outside of a fictional context, there's a problem. Sorry.

While I see your point in the one particular example you chose (The doctrine of free will), I think it's also pretty clear that your deity is a bad father, given his omniscience. I can only liken it to a father watching his toddler trying to grab the handle of a pot of boiling water that is sitting on the stove - and letting it happen so the kid would learn a lesson. I think you know how I would feel about scum like that...

_________________
BELIEVE NOTHING, no matter where you read it, or who has said it,
not even if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason
and your own common sense. - GAUTAMA BUDDHA
roid
Inane!




PostPosted: Sun Mar 21, 2010 9:12 pm View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

Thorne wrote:
Bunyip wrote:
GE 3:1-7, 22-24 God allows Adam and Eve to be deceived by the Serpent (the craftiest of all of God's wild creatures). They eat of the "Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil," thereby incurring death for themselves and all of mankind for ever after. God prevents them from regaining eternal life, by placing a guard around the "Tree of Eternal Life." (Note: God could have done the same for the "Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil" in the first place and would thereby have prevented the Fall of man, the necessity for Salvation, the Crucifixion of Jesus, etc.)

I'll take the first one from your second link as an example. The main theme in all arguments against the Bible is an assumption of a non-scriptural nature to reality, and even self-contradictory reality. God could conceivably have kept anything bad from ever happening, but every man has a free will and God would have had to shield us from the ability or the opportunity to ever do anything wrong (that sounds like the Left's agenda). What good is a thing if it is untested? I've heard people argue that Satan is the good guy because he "set man free" (to perish in rebellion against the one that created us in the first place) (Roid, most recently brought it up), now this is saying that God is the bad guy for giving man free will. What? Your (it's not yours, but you're taking it up) idyllic world where there is never even opportunity to rebel against God does not exist within the realm of free will. You focus too much on the object of the tree itself and not on the ever-present aspect of obedience to the Creator.

The argument is self-contradictory or must exist within its own nonsensical reality. If you're willing to buy into things like this then it would be little wonder if you would put stock in other things in life that don't really make sense.

EDIT:
Should God have done with us like the Muslims do with their women and control our situation so exactly that there is never even the slightest potential opportunity to do wrong?


I'd say God's a bad girl for expecting humans with free will to be her slaves. No-one likes an authoritarian dictator. We don't want to be slaves.
I like my free will though. Did anyone actually say they dislike free will? There is a contradiction between free will and being a slave. Sure, you can remove free will - but a better option is to remove the being a slave part instead.


> "What good is a thing if it is untested?"
Yeah, like the testability of the Bible to make (in)accurate predictions about how our world works (ie: contradicted by the knowledge that we discover about our world when we do science), or the testable ability of God to influence our world in any way (ie: prayers to God X, Y or Z, tested against a placebo control group). What good is God if - like the Bible says - we should not test him: "Do not put the Lord your God to the test" - Book of Matthew.
But it sure is a successful way to sidestep the whole "contradicted by reality" thing, just ignore reality, tell your followers that it's forbidden to consider the possability that you might not be so infallible afterall. Shackle people's minds to fear of eternal torture (but he does love you, lol).
What if you bought a pair of shoes that said on the box "These shoes are guarenteed* to make you fly. (*Guarentee void if actually tested)". In the real world, you wouldn't accept such a stupid disclaimer on a guarentee. If God is right, but God forbids you from actually testing if he's right or not. Then it's probably because he's wrong and is trying to scare you enough that you won't try to find out - so he can string the gullable along for as long as possible.
Do you remember in the wizard of Oz, the command to "PAY NO ATTENTION TO THE MAN BEHIND THE CURTAIN!". Same thing. If Dorathy obeyed, and shielded her eyes, then that movie would have stretched out a lot longer. The act of definiantly looking behind that forbidden curtain, could be seen as the Age of enlightenment. When we finally accepted that religion was stringing us all along the whole time, yeah we had a knee slapping time but it's over, the world tried to grow up and accept Santa Claus doesn't actually exist.

also: Why would an omniscient creature need to test anything.
(just as a bit of trivia, i want to point out the word Omniscience means "all directional" "knowledge". Science means knowledge. Science is the systematic process of aquiring accurate knowledge, that is to say the aquisation of the knowledge required to make accurate predictions about things in the world (ie: things that really exist). "How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?", is not science, because angels are not an observable phenomena - it is thus an untestable and useless question. Lets do something better with our time, like test the efficacy of new antibiotics on infections in doubleblind placebo controlled tests instead, huzzah.)

>"...the ever-present aspect of obedience to the Creator."
Just because you created someone doesn't mean you get to control their life. You don't do everything your Dad tells you to do. If your dad told you to sacrifice your son to him, you'd punch your dad in his crazy face.
Speaking of God telling people to kill. God still tells people to kill, even in our modern age. Since we started keeping proper records of these things, it seems that God talking to people is actually rather common. A lot more common than the Bible would have had us believe. Some people are even possessed by a legion of demons.

Tell me, how did Abraham know that it was God telling him to kill his son Issac?
How did Abraham know that it wasn't a demon in disguise? I mean... it was telling him to kill his son! That might set off a red-flag in some people that just maybe this wasn't actually God talking here, know what i'm sayin? "By their fruit you will recognise them", that's how we're ment to tell them apart. If i heard a voice telling me to kill my son - yeah - that's probably a demon. If it sounded like God's voice, well i'm sure it's pretty simple for a demon to do a good immitation of God's voice (as if i could tell them apart anyway, what does God sound like? Morgan Freeman? It's not like i would know).
I can produce other Bible scriptures of supposedly "God" commanding people to commit genocide, kill women and children, even unborn babies. What do you think are the chances that these arn't actually God's commands at all? I wonder if actually it was demons talking. It doesn't sound like the fruit of God to me.

_________________
i'm here to ... uh,
Thorne
Ace




PostPosted: Sun Mar 21, 2010 11:50 pm View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

Bunyip wrote:
in the one particular example you chose

Do I detect a negative implication? Wink I chose the first one I layed eyes on after clicking the link. I don't think I did too bad with that one, and I'd bet I could do the same with others.

You don't like the God of the Bible? I can't always appreciate what motivates God in some of the things He has done, but I realize also that we are only human, and life demonstrates that our judgment is more often than not imperfect. Sometimes we just can't face up to things that seem too harsh to us. We're weak. Even our own judicial punishment for heinous crimes is too harsh for a lot of people.

_________________
"Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might;
for there is no work or device or knowledge or wisdom in the grave where you are going."
Thorne
Ace




PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 12:49 am View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

Roid wrote:
Just because you created someone doesn't mean you get to control their life.

By what reasoning? God is the only one that has created a life. The Bible uses a potter and his clay example to illustrate it.
Roid wrote:
You don't do everything your Dad tells you to do. If your dad told you to sacrifice your son to him, you'd punch your dad in his crazy face.

My Dad didn't create me, and he is also not the highest authority in my life.

As for Abraham almost sacrificing Isaac... God stopped him. It was a test. It's apparent God didn't want Isaac to actually be sacrificed, what God was after was obedience. I don't know how Abraham could tell that it was God, but it is apparent that he could, and that it was, because God intervened and no harm came to Isaac. If the Bible were a work of fiction meant to enslave people this is where Isaac would have been sacrificed and then raised from the dead. That would have been much more spectacular. (it even says that Abraham thought that that was what was going to happen)

Do I ever worry about what would happen if God asked me to sacrifice my son? No. I don't believe he ever would, and I think dwelling on it too much would be unhealthy. Also in 6000 years of human history God only asked it once, and there are parallels suggesting that God's own sacrifice of his son is tied in with Abraham's obedience, which is interesting.

_________________
"Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might;
for there is no work or device or knowledge or wisdom in the grave where you are going."
Smotie
The Wombat




PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 1:17 am View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

Bunyip wrote:
...In an ironic turn of events, as I write this I sit in a pew "enjoying" an Anglican service.


hahahaha that is hilarious, I am surprised the altar didn't crack. Razz
Grendel
Ninja Admin




PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 2:28 am View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

What is it w/ the bible thumping in here ? It's a book written thousands of years ago by men, editited over the course of the same time by men who decided how to phrase, translate and what is included. Do you really think that these men did so w/o any self interest ? They all did it because "god" told them to ? Why do you trust them to the point where you say there is no fault w/ the contents ?

_________________
Borders? I have never seen one. But I have heard they exist in the minds of some people. -- Thor Heyerdahl
Durch einen Stich bereits geschafft, erschlafft und ohne Saft und Kraft! -- Donald, examining a Deflator Dextrospirillus
Bunyip
DBB Staff




PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 6:16 am View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

Smotie wrote:
hahahaha that is hilarious, I am surprised the altar didn't crack. Razz


The bishop was there as well. I shook his hand Smile

Thorne wrote:
Do I detect a negative implication? Wink I chose the first one I layed eyes on after clicking the link. I don't think I did too bad with that one, and I'd bet I could do the same with others.


There was no negative implication intended, but there SHOULD have been. Regardless, you could do the same with the others, I'd answer you back as I did, and you'd say "ah, but it would all make sense if you only just trusted in God"... The ultimate circular argument.

Thorne wrote:
there are parallels suggesting that God's own sacrifice of his son is tied in with Abraham's obedience, which is interesting.


In literature we call this foreshadowing. I'm glad to see your critical reading skills are progressing. Razz

_________________
BELIEVE NOTHING, no matter where you read it, or who has said it,
not even if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason
and your own common sense. - GAUTAMA BUDDHA
Thorne
Ace




PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 5:33 pm View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

Bunyip wrote:
Regardless, you could do the same with the others, I'd answer you back as I did, and you'd say "ah, but it would all make sense if you only just trusted in God"... The ultimate circular argument.

That's an interesting portrayal of this discussion. Prove it.

_________________
"Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might;
for there is no work or device or knowledge or wisdom in the grave where you are going."
Bunyip
DBB Staff




PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 7:23 pm View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

Thorne wrote:
I can't always appreciate what motivates God in some of the things He has done, but I realize also that we are only human.

_________________
BELIEVE NOTHING, no matter where you read it, or who has said it,
not even if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason
and your own common sense. - GAUTAMA BUDDHA
roid
Inane!




PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 4:52 am View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

Here's a video mentioning a lot of Jehovah's women and child killing, also good ol' human sacrifices. All with citations of course. (Such a pleasing odor, but did he inhale? lol)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pt66kbYmXXk

Thorne wrote:
My Dad didn't create me

You don't know how sexual reproduction works?
Thorne wrote:
As for Abraham almost sacrificing Isaac... God stopped him. It was a test. It's apparent God didn't want Isaac to actually be sacrificed, what God was after was obedience. I don't know how Abraham could tell that it was God, but it is apparent that he could, and that it was, because God intervened and no harm came to Isaac. If the Bible were a work of fiction meant to enslave people this is where Isaac would have been sacrificed and then raised from the dead. That would have been much more spectacular. (it even says that Abraham thought that that was what was going to happen)

You're not thinking about this hard enough. I think there's some kindof mental block stopping you from questioning the Bible's logic.

If you heard a voice telling you that God wanted you to kill people, what do you think would be the cause:
A) GOD
B) SATAN (or some other demon/s)
C) AUDITORY HULLUCINATIONS (ie: insanity, hopefully temporary)
Abraham heard a voice telling him to sacrifice his son. Abraham just assumed it was (option A:) God, and that he should therefore follow the voice's commands.
How many people do you think Satan - the great deciever, the father of the lie - has done the exact same thing to?
Again, i point out how the Bible says you should tell apart false prophets from true prophets - by their fruit. How can you tell the difference between if God is telling you to kill, and Satan is telling you to kill? Is killing ok, as long as God commands it? How can you tell if it's good fruit, or bad fruit?
Even if you thought that it was indeed God that was commanding you to kill. Would you do it?
Thorne wrote:
Do I ever worry about what would happen if God asked me to sacrifice my son? No. I don't believe he ever would, and I think dwelling on it too much would be unhealthy. Also in 6000 years of human history God only asked it once, and there are parallels suggesting that God's own sacrifice of his son is tied in with Abraham's obedience, which is interesting.

No, God has asked for human blood sacrifice many times. Watch the video i started this post with, write down the references and look them up in your own Bible.
So i ask again, what would you do if he asked you to kill?
A B or C Thorne....
Thorne wrote:
and I think dwelling on it too much would be unhealthy

*facepalm* yeah, beware of thinking - unhealthy practice that one. Nothing good ever came from thinking.

_________________
i'm here to ... uh,
roid
Inane!




PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 7:33 am View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YqC73omSk4o
Here's another video illustrating the Abraham thing from a different perspective.
If you take God as your absolute moral compass. Then how will you know when God is doing something wrong? Well - he can't - the moment God does something wrong, it suddenly becomes the new RIGHT!
So if you can't judge God's actions to see if they are correct or not. Then how do you actually know you're following God? You could be following anyone - even Satan. How do you know? Did God show you his credentials? How do you know they wern't forged?

Whoever you are following can do anything, and then claim that it's not wrong "Coz i'm God that's why". So why would you follow him? What is the difference between God and any other magical being that just tells you "i can do no wrong, but testing me is forbidden". Without a way of testing him, you'll never know he can do no wrong, Circular reasoning.

_________________
i'm here to ... uh,
Neo
[deleted]




PostPosted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 10:46 pm View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

If someone would have told me after I made my last serious post that this thread would reach twelve pages, I wouldn't have believed him, although I'm becoming more aware of human behavior.

Have any of you actually stopped and asked yourself why you even bother debating and trying to convince people?

As I recall, I stopped discussing this when people started to react to me as a result of past trauma and when the moderator warned us to stop.

I'm sorry if asking why people do certain things is too "off topic," but I have no interest in debating creation.
Fiend
Hotshot




PostPosted: Sat Feb 19, 2011 10:58 pm View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

<plonk> in neo's wide-open mouff
Neo
[deleted]




PostPosted: Mon Feb 21, 2011 12:44 am View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

No deal™
Fiend
Hotshot




PostPosted: Mon Feb 21, 2011 3:54 pm View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

Neo wrote:
No deal™

why? Razz
Neo
[deleted]




PostPosted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 9:03 pm View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

why not?

[insert "Neo's philosophy on life" here]
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