Descent BB

 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

   Descent BB Forum Index > Ethics and Commentary > Communications Post new topic   Reply to topic
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Woodchip
Ace




PostPosted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 8:41 am View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

Seems like for ages we have been trying to communicate with "animals" by trying to teach them how to communicate with us instead of us with them. Are most notable success would be Koko the gorilla who can use sign language good enough to create her own unique phrases. Even so we still keep her in a cage as Koko is nothing more than a animal.

With dolphins we try and go about it another way thru crude uses of whistles and gestures to command a action or object. Well until more recently where researchers are now trying to use a sound emitting keyboard:

" Herzing created an open-ended framework for communication, using sounds, symbols and props to interact with the dolphins. The goal was to create a shared, primitive language that would allow dolphins and humans to ask for props, such as balls or scarves.

Divers demonstrated the system by pressing keys on a large submerged keyboard. Other humans would throw them the corresponding prop. In addition to being labeled with a symbol, each key was paired with a whistle that dolphins could mimic. A dolphin could ask for a toy either by pushing the key with her nose, or whistling.

Herzing’s study is the first of its kind. No one has tried to establish two-way communication in the wild."

All well and good but we are still limiting our understanding as we are trying to set the sound to describe a object, much like using sign language with Koko. I'm just wondering when we will progress to putting objects into the water, recording the sounds the dolphins make and then try to understand their language?

What happens when we finally do make a break thru, and realize that the cetaceans have a rich and varied language? Will we still treat them as animals? Will they be accorded any rights from the UN? How will the religious leaders respond when they are Godsmacked with the possibility we are not the only intelligent offspring? Were we made in Gods image or are there really multiple images. Have fun.
Bunyip
DBB Staff




PostPosted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 9:51 am View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

Cetacean intelligence is a common SF trope - but there are some fairly serious reservations about whether they can or do posses human-level intelligence - and if they do it's possible their world view is too alien for much meaningful communication beyond the basics. On the other hand they might be immensely compatible with us as well. That would be pretty cool! <shrug> I'd love to see some kind of breakthrough. Maybe they can explain the Bloop!

Woodchip, it's surprising to see your glee at the prospect of watching the discomfiting of the religious, particularly coming from our local right-wing radical.

_________________
BELIEVE NOTHING, no matter where you read it, or who has said it,
not even if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason
and your own common sense. - GAUTAMA BUDDHA
Perediablo
Ace




PostPosted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 11:12 am View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

We all know that aliens talk to whales and their probes destroy buildings and vaporize oceans. Or maybe I had a little too much LDS in the 60's at Berkley.

_________________
"To design is to communicate clearly by whatever means you can control or master." _Milton Glaser
Jess
Hotshot




PostPosted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 11:17 am View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

Perediablo wrote:
Or maybe I had a little too much LDS in the 60's at Berkley.


Heh. Someone may have watched too much Star Trek recently. No more SyFy channel for you!
Perediablo
Ace




PostPosted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 12:09 pm View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

Bunyip wrote:
Cetacean intelligence is a common SF trope - but there are some fairly serious reservations about whether they can or do posses human-level intelligence - and if they do it's possible their world view is too alien for much meaningful communication beyond the basics. On the other hand they might be immensely compatible with us as well. That would be pretty cool! <shrug> I'd love to see some kind of breakthrough. Maybe they can explain the Bloop!


I too would love to find the source of the Bloop. Maybe Aquaman had beans for dinner?

Bunyip wrote:
Woodchip, it's surprising to see your glee at the prospect of watching the discomfitting of the religious, particularly coming from our local right-wing radical.


This is interesting. I would also find glee in the discomfiting of many groups of people at once. Piss 'em all off I say. Makes for great E&C posts.

_________________
"To design is to communicate clearly by whatever means you can control or master." _Milton Glaser
Zuruck
Ace




PostPosted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 1:16 pm View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

One thing I've always respected about woodchip is that he's not one of those fucked up religious nutjobs like Lothar or apparently Thorne. He's just your basic brand of conservative.

Most, if not all, animals communicate with each other in some form. Because our species is the most evolved on the planet and we have grasped the concept of turning sounds into unique patterns via our hyoid bone, the idea is that we are the only ones to communicate. Far from it, I'm glad to see science of this kind.
Avder
Hotshot




PostPosted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 5:33 pm View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

If they do stick stuff in the water, it should be stuff that dolphins are naturally fmailiar with. Fish, coral, sand, sharks, stuff like that. Stick a typewriter or tuba in there and youd get the dolphin equivalent of "bunch of junk" or "shiny thing".
B-
Cocked & Locked




PostPosted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 7:02 pm View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

You spelled discomfiting incorrectly, Douchesicle. Smile


Love,

The not-so- religious...sort of directionally right.

_________________
i found peace mother fucker-Jbomb
..its fucking retarded to be a bigot. so chew on that....faggots.- jbomb
Bunyip
DBB Staff




PostPosted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 10:06 pm View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

<snort>

_________________
BELIEVE NOTHING, no matter where you read it, or who has said it,
not even if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason
and your own common sense. - GAUTAMA BUDDHA
Woodchip
Ace




PostPosted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 7:40 am View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

Bunyip wrote:


Woodchip, it's surprising to see your glee at the prospect of watching the discomfiting of the religious, particularly coming from our local right-wing radical.


Not sure where you get the glee impression from but whatever. Local right wing radical? As in neo nazis skinhead? You smoking something you shouldn't be?

As to discomfiting the religious, I am conservative...not conservative christian. When someone can tell me beyond a shadow of a doubt which religion is the correct one, then I'll sign up. Until then I'll be suspect of all of them.
Bunyip
DBB Staff




PostPosted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 7:44 am View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

Sorry - the clever phrasing and the gotcha closer gave the impression of glee. I guess you're basically indifferent to their discomfiture and only mentioned it in passing then. My bad Wink

(and I still think you're totally Rad!!!)

_________________
BELIEVE NOTHING, no matter where you read it, or who has said it,
not even if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason
and your own common sense. - GAUTAMA BUDDHA
Woodchip
Ace




PostPosted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 7:52 am View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

Zuruck wrote:
One thing I've always respected about woodchip is that he's not one of those fucked up religious nutjobs like Lothar or apparently Thorne. He's just your basic brand of conservative.

Most, if not all, animals communicate with each other in some form. Because our species is the most evolved on the planet and we have grasped the concept of turning sounds into unique patterns via our hyoid bone, the idea is that we are the only ones to communicate. Far from it, I'm glad to see science of this kind.


Well the question is, why do we assume communication has to be verbal (as we all sit and read these electronic pixels). Or that the written word is a criteria for intelligence considering earlier in our history story tellers were the holders of knowledge. Octopi are judged to be fairly intelligent creatures yet their communication medium is color. Animals use scents to a varying degree to communicate. So I guess my point is, if we are going to successfully learn to talk with something we need to go beyond the ego centric route of "training" them to use our symbology and start figuring out what theirs is. We might just get some surprising conversations.
Jess
Hotshot




PostPosted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 8:33 am View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

I don't know if humans are capable of truly communicating with another species when humans don't understand each other half the time. We understand the language/words but the meaning is a different story. Otherwise, we wouldn't have so many damn "Learn to Communicate More Efficiently" seminars in the work place.

It's not a bad thing to strive for and they might get surface level understanding but I don't expect a deep, intellectual conversation with my dog any time soon. Although, it would be nice to be able to discuss his emotional state at the exact moment he decided to shit on my floor.

And another thing, we already know what the dolphins are trying to tell us: "So long, and thanks for all the fish!"
Thorne
Ace




PostPosted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 9:22 pm View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

Jess wrote:
Although, it would be nice to be able to discuss his emotional state at the exact moment he decided to shit on my floor.

That made me laugh. Laughing Good post.

You know there are people that can read animal's behavior and body language to the point where they might as well understand their "language".

I think it's a little ridiculous that the differences between animal communications and human communications are not accepted by some people for what they clearly are. Animals don't post on bulletin boards about someday being able to communicate with humans through their attempts to learn our "language". Ya think there might really just be an intelligence difference there? We're the ones doing all of the thinking... some of us a little too much. Wink

Does that degree of common sense make me ego-centric?

_________________
"Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might;
for there is no work or device or knowledge or wisdom in the grave where you are going."
Thorne
Ace




PostPosted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 9:26 pm View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

That's not to deny that there is complexity in animal communications.

_________________
"Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might;
for there is no work or device or knowledge or wisdom in the grave where you are going."
Neo
[deleted]




PostPosted: Sat Feb 26, 2011 7:47 am View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

This thread reeks of smoke from the flame war... or as atheists would say, the Inquisition... can't we get back to the science? Smile
View previous topic :: View next topic  
All times are GMT - 6 Hours
Post new topic   Reply to topic
Jump to:  
   Descent BB Forum Index > Ethics and Commentary > Communications

 
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Image hosting by postimage.org Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group