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d3jake
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 11, 2010 10:39 pm View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

I just got caught up on all of this, quite a bit of ground was covered, albeit the same ground again and again...

A thought occurred to me along the lines of this:
I think it would be a fair statement to say that most folks will agree that mankind has an ability to think beyond instinct. What may be more debatable would be to what degree other animals can do the same. (To share the reasoning behind my usage of "other animals" I view it as this: Even if we are specially created by some being that loves us all, and then all non-humans are afterthoughts, science has shown through repeated evidence that we share many of the same biological processes. We take in O_2, a cow does the same. etc. etc.)
I pose a question: Would it be fair to say that homosexuality exists in many species, but it's the ability to be aware of it, and have reasoning over it that creates such an idea of "that's wrong!"? Thus helping to "correct" what would in other species create a genetic dead-end, thus snuffing it out?
The shorthand being: Are aberrations fixed by awareness?

_________________
"You don't need a deity floating among high with a huge fucking bat to understand the difference between right and wrong." -MD-2389
Spidey
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 11, 2010 11:31 pm View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

I’ll answer your question if you answer mine, because it was dodged twice.

Is it possible that the behavior we see in animals can be explained in some other way than drawing a direct parallel to humans?

A simple yes or no will do.

_________________
Better to be pissed off, than to be pissed on.
Neo
[deleted]




PostPosted: Fri Nov 12, 2010 1:10 am View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

jake I hope you realize the irony of your signature. Razz

Wake me up once we get to page 7. Razz
Bunyip
DBB Staff




PostPosted: Fri Nov 12, 2010 6:55 am View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

Spidey wrote:
I’ll answer your question if you answer mine, because it was dodged twice.

Is it possible that the behavior we see in animals can be explained in some other way than drawing a direct parallel to humans?

A simple yes or no will do.


A better question might be:

"Is it possible that the homosexual behavior we see in humans can be explained in some other way than drawing a direct parallel to animals?".

To which I would answer: "Yes, it's possible." Then I'd give canned lecture # 473 about how in an infinite universe anything is possible, however some things are more PROBABLE than others.

But starting at the direct parallel with animals and working upwards would be my hypothesis of how to arrive at the best explanation. Not that you didn't already know that. Of course it's always more complex than that... These damned oversized brains of ours complicate things to no end.

_________________
BELIEVE NOTHING, no matter where you read it, or who has said it,
not even if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason
and your own common sense. - GAUTAMA BUDDHA
roid
Inane!




PostPosted: Fri Nov 12, 2010 7:01 am View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

Flip wrote:
Quote:
Normally, I'd anticipate a response referring to the 'fallen world' described in scripture, but you said that you see the world as made perfect.


No your right. I'm condensing a whole lot into a few sentences, mainly because I'm not real invested in this discussion. I've made the same arguments, with many words and a lot more eloquently before and the points made that were good enough to at least question, always seem to go unanswered as if they were never asked.
Yes, I think the world is in a fallen state, but when I watch animal kingdom or shows similar, I see perfection. A glimpse of what it was and what it will be again.

I've really lost my zeal for these kind of discussions, on an internet forum anyways. In person, you can force a person to address something that you've asked that directly challenges his position, as well he can do the same. It's more productive, gentlemanly and keeps cherry-picking down to a minimum. I find it difficult to to express exactly how I feel about something online. I may say some things that can be argued against no doubt, but it always seems the real hard ones are side-stepped in favor of the controversial.


I can relate flip. One-on-one you can often force an issue at least in the direction of a resolution, unless people run away.
So - If there's anything you specifically want me to answer, please feel free to pursue it 'till the ends of the earth. Satisfaction should be sought Twisted Evil.
Flip this is something that you, me, Foil, and probably also some others in this thread have in common.


note this is a re-quote from the same post. Flip wrote:
Yes, I think the world is in a fallen state, but when I watch animal kingdom or shows similar, I see perfection. A glimpse of what it was and what it will be again.


Some animals murder eachother.
Rival chimpanse tribes wage wars with one another. During these wars they kill eachother, and will even take and eat the corpses of their slain rivals. (i recall one recorded event where an entire tribe shared EATING a rival baby chimp after a raid. wtf chimps... wtf).
Many other animals fight within their own species TO THE DEATH. They basically murder one another, generally concerning mating. Freshest example off my head is an Australian ground-bee species where the many males will actively fight to the death over access to a female - often accidentally killing the female during the orgy/skuffle (fights are chaotic with many bees involved at once).
Also - afaik one of the biggest killers of male domestic cats is fights with other male cats. The vet has saved my male cat's life with anti-biotics quite a few times already (infections from fight injuries).
- Is it ok when animals murder eachother?
- Is it ok when animals rape eachother?
This is your perfect creation. You are inevitably lead to the question of:
- Is it ok when animals have homosexual sex with eachother?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexual_behavior_in_animals

In this post I don't mean to imply whether any of these behaviours i mentioned (war, murder, cannibalism, rape, homosexuality) is acceptable or not for humans to do. But i hope to show these behaviours are natural, as animals do it, which brings into question your "perfection" argument no?

_________________
i'm here to ... uh,
roid
Inane!




PostPosted: Fri Nov 12, 2010 7:10 am View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

d3jake wrote:
I just got caught up on all of this, quite a bit of ground was covered, albeit the same ground again and again...

A thought occurred to me along the lines of this:
I think it would be a fair statement to say that most folks will agree that mankind has an ability to think beyond instinct. What may be more debatable would be to what degree other animals can do the same. (To share the reasoning behind my usage of "other animals" I view it as this: Even if we are specially created by some being that loves us all, and then all non-humans are afterthoughts, science has shown through repeated evidence that we share many of the same biological processes. We take in O_2, a cow does the same. etc. etc.)
I pose a question: Would it be fair to say that homosexuality exists in many species, but it's the ability to be aware of it, and have reasoning over it that creates such an idea of "that's wrong!"? Thus helping to "correct" what would in other species create a genetic dead-end, thus snuffing it out?
The shorthand being: Are aberrations fixed by awareness?


Hmm, possibly.
What is and isn't "correct" or not, and what is and isn't "an aberration" or not is a complicated topic on it's own which will overly complicate this thread because it simmers the topic down into a question of absolute authority from higher powers. Basically a thread about the validity of religious teachings, texts and claims.
If you wish to start a new thread concerning this, i will participate.

_________________
i'm here to ... uh,
Spidey
Hotshot




PostPosted: Fri Nov 12, 2010 9:00 am View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

Nice Bunyip, you take my question…turn it around, load it up like a cannon…then dodge the original for the third time.

Respect = dropping.

_________________
Better to be pissed off, than to be pissed on.
Bunyip
DBB Staff




PostPosted: Fri Nov 12, 2010 9:04 am View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

Oh, either way the answer is yes - with canned lecture # 473. I just removed the spin. Sometimes it's not what you say, it's how you say it, and I'm pretty sure you phrased that very carefully.

Here's a parallel: Male dogs mounting other male dogs. Why are they doing that? Turns out it's usually not sexually motivated. Now look at homosexual rape in prison. Please submit a 500 word essay detailing the primary motivations, comparing and contrasting the two apparently unrelated acts in the context of social hierarchy and dominance.

_________________
BELIEVE NOTHING, no matter where you read it, or who has said it,
not even if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason
and your own common sense. - GAUTAMA BUDDHA
Spidey
Hotshot




PostPosted: Sat Nov 13, 2010 12:13 am View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

Hey Flip…you like dogs…check out the NOVA episode called Dogs Decoded. Freakin dog with a 340 plus vocabulary was blowing my mind.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/nature/dogs-decoded.html

_________________
Better to be pissed off, than to be pissed on.
Flip
Ace




PostPosted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 6:56 pm View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

Ive bee meaning to get back this this Spidey. I'll take a look see over it sometime tomorrow
Zuruck
Ace




PostPosted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 1:58 pm View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

Three pages of buggery. gotta love it
Bunyip
DBB Staff




PostPosted: Wed Dec 15, 2010 10:09 am View user's profile Reply with quote Send private message

Perhaps YOU love it, Zuruck. I certainly don't judge you, though Smile

_________________
BELIEVE NOTHING, no matter where you read it, or who has said it,
not even if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason
and your own common sense. - GAUTAMA BUDDHA
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